Iconic "Rhone Ranger" winemaker RANDALL GRAHM (Bonny Donn, Le Cigare Volant, Popelouchum, The Language of Yes) joins us for a very special talk about Friuli wines, his love for Pignolo and Schioppettino and Friuli. Also, Randall vindicates me about one of my stronger opinions about wine at the end of the show. It's a great conversation about dreams, the search for terroir, and the life-giving properties of Pignolo...
Randall: [00:00:00] Got it.
Wayne: Welcome to Lata Verna for Yuli Wines. I am your host, Wayne Young and boy oh boy. Am I excited today? , I am super stoked to have, , a very, very important person in the world of wine. Someone. , was sort of part of my early education of wine because I worked at Wine Spectator many, many years ago. , winemaker Randall Graham.
Thank you, Randall. Can I call you Randall, but of course. Or would you prefer Mr. Graham?
Randall: I, I wonder if my dad is in the room if, with Mr.
Wayne: Graham . Okay. Thank you Randall, for spending some time with us today. Um, I'm gonna just like jump right into it here because, uh, you know, you are so well known as sort of.
The, the Rhone Ranger and working with Bonnie [00:01:00] Dune and Las Valant and all those sort of things. But I really wanted to start off talking about your more recent projects, which are the language of Yes. Very interesting name there. And, and another one called Puum. Am I pronouncing that
Randall: correctly?
Unfortunately not. Um, it's actually pop, which is. , which is, which is a Musu Indian name for the settlement around San Juan Batista. But the alternative translation of the word is paradise, which is actually
Wayne: quite accurate. Oh, okay. So literally it is a place that is like paradise? I think so. Laumum. Yes.
Okay. So can you tell, tell me a little bit about Paradise please. I'm really interested. Well,
Randall: it's, um, it's a funny place sa it's in San Benito County, which is kind of a mysterious county, and it's, it's a, it's an area that [00:02:00] it's known for its seismic activity where one part of the property, the actually northern boundary boundary of the property is in fact the San Andreas fault.
So it's really kind of an intersection of a lot of different influences, political, geological. Uh, cultural, um, it's really kind of an an epicenter and it, at some point we should talk about what, why. It reminds me of free yuli. I mean, it, it really isn't free yuli, but there's something psychically, um, spiritually that is reminiscent of freely.
Wayne: Well, I, I definitely want to talk about that for sure. Yes,
Randall: so anyways. I, I came to Puum or San Juan Batista because I actually dreamt about the place. Um, and I went on a lot of realtor dates, and when I saw it, I realized I had actually seen it in a dream. So, you know, I've been, been sort of on the lifelong quest for terroir.
And then if, if there isn't, [00:03:00] if there wasn't this, this kind of sign, um, I, I don't think I, there was. Or
Wayne: definitive, I could ask. So you literally dreamed of this place, and when you saw it, you were like, yep, that's the one that I saw in my dream.
Randall: Yep. That's pretty much how it happened. And I'm not a wow woo woo g kind of guy particularly, but, but that's, that's how it happened.
Wayne: Very interesting. Is, wow. So just because I'm, and I'm gonna admit this right now, I'm very ignorant. As far as Californian geography is concerned, I've been so steeped in for Yuli and Italian wine for so many years. Could you just give us an idea of where we're talking about in California?
Sure.
Randall: Yeah. It's in the central coast. It's not far from the town of Gilroy, not far from the sound of Santa Cruz. It's about 45 minutes southeast of Santa Cruz. Okay. Um, It's, it's coastal. It's [00:04:00] mild in climate. Um, long growing season. It's really kind of an I the only problem, we don't get a lot of rain. We don't get, this year we we're getting a lot of rain, but in general, that's the only tragic flaw that the area has is not quite enough rain.
Wayne: You've been getting Yeah. Some pretty horrible weather there recently. No. There's been some sort of bomb cyclone that's come through.
Randall: Yeah, we had a bomb cyclone yesterday. That was pretty exciting.
Wayne: Any damage or was that, uh, did that sort of come and go without any major hassle? .
Randall: Well, we were fine. The vineyard is fine.
My house in Santa Cruz is fine there. There's a town just south of here called Cap, uh, which got pretty nailed. The wharf got pretty destroyed. Uh, the, the waterfront properties, the, um, businesses got pretty nailed. Wow. So it's kind of a funny place. The, these, these disasters happen about ev every 10 years or so.
Wayne: Uh, these types of, of sort of [00:05:00] tropical hurricane type storms there? Well,
Randall: fires or Oh, right. Or some earthquakes or storms. Something happens about every 10 years in Santa Cruz, it seems. Oh, in Santa
Wayne: Cruz particularly. Okay. So you, you saw this place in a dream. You were searching for a winery property for yourself.
Well, I was,
Randall: and I was actually slightly misguided or differently guided, I guess at the time. I was still under the imagining imagination that I was going to produce the Great American Pinot Noir, and this was of course, a total delusion on my part or total misstep. Um, I realized that, yeah, that's hard and interesting, but there are more worthwhile things to pursue than trying to make yet.
Burgundy in California and a lot of other people have tried to do that and I thought, you know, I could actually maybe do something more [00:06:00] original than try to make a great Pinot. Okay, so I, so. I am doing some original things, um, at publish some of, maybe they're crazy, um, but maybe, maybe not. We'll. We'll, it's a little early.
Too early to tell, actually. It's not too early to tell. So, so far, so good. Um, We're growing conventional grapes like Grenache, Splunk and Grenache gre and the results are wonderful. We're growing some exotic varieties like, uh, tibu and que, and of course some Alani grapes, um, which we're using in our breeding program cuz we're breeding.
We're we're doing two things. That are kind of cooky when we're doing self crosses, uh, of Sirk or Serene and Tiran and, um, this funny grape called Pinola.
Wayne: Uhhuh. . So you're crossing Sirrah with Pinola? [00:07:00] No,
Randall: no, no, no, no. We're crossing the, the, the variety with it, with itself. Ah, okay. So, Self crossed, and then we're doing some proper breeding where we're actually taking two lineages, and that's Chi, Gilo, and Pico.
Um, we're doing the actual proper breeding
Wayne: between those two. Yes, exactly. Wow, that's very interesting. What are your, are you looking for a white grape there or a pink skinned grape, or what are you looking for by crossing Chile, Jolo and Picco.
Randall: You know, I'm looking for something extraordinary, but I don't have a fixed idea of what it's gonna look like.
Some of the grapes are going to be red, okay? Some of them are gonna be white. Maybe a few of them will be be pink. Probably not. That's their pink grapes are pretty rare. Um, and then the question is of course, then what do you keep the red grapes sep, keep the white grapes separate? Do you mix them all together?[00:08:00]
What do you do? Um, because the project, in a sense is sort of open. Um, in other words, when you, when people breed grapes, generally they're trying to solve a problem. In other words, they like the grape, but they want to fix one thing. They want it to ripe in earlier or later. Or have higher acid. Lower acid, or bigger bunch, smaller bunch, looser bunch.
They're not trying to, they're not trying to discover something totally brand new in general. Okay, so this is really a journey of exploration and I honestly have no idea where it's going to lead. Wow.
Wayne: So I, I mean, I'm doing a little bit of research before our conversation. I, I saw something along the lines of 10,000 grape varieties that you're working with there.
Randall: Oh. Oh, no, we don't have 10,000. Actually. We almost have that many. Um, not quite every, every cross is a new variety. So even the self, [00:09:00] even the self crosses are new varieties. Um, they're for examples ish, but not necessarily. Sirrah. Okay. A self cross of, you know, something interesting In the case of Sirrah, it has a white grape white parent and a red parent, um, Mandu, blanche and dureza.
So it turns out in the white grape is a, uh, is a recessive gene. So 25% of the offspring are white grapes. Um, which is interesting. That is interesting. I. Yeah. Um, and the white grapes are actually super cool and, and super, I think more interesting than the reds in the case of Syrah. Um, we'll see what happens, um, with the Chi JLo pi.
Wayne: Very interesting. And, and you, so we mentioned Piko. Are there any other freely varieties that you're working with there? Well,
Randall: I [00:10:00] have, you know, we have a little block, kind of a Vine library. I've got. Petino, of course. Um, I, once upon a time I had verso. Unfortunately, that's a lot, that's a painful story. I, I love verso.
But, um, something bad happened to the verso. It got bulldozed inadvertently, which was really unfor and there is no more verso in California at the moment, which is really tragic. That is tragic. . Yes. And of course, as I said, we're, we're working with Pinola, doing a very ambitious Pinola project, actually imported the seeds from Oli, the
Wayne: nursery, the Pinola seeds?
Correct. Okay.
Randall: Right, right from the source.
Wayne: Have you seen, uh, Ben Little's book on on pin? . I have
Randall: indeed. Um, Ben actually was the source of the seeds. [00:11:00] He, he organized the seeds, ah, which was extraordinary. And his book is extraordinary. Uh, Pinola is extraordinary. There's something very. Dream like about his book.
And there's something very dreamlike about Pinola. I think it's, um, he was definitely the right person to write the book on, on Pinola. Well, he's, he's
Wayne: also an extraordinary guy. , yeah, dreamlike I think is a really wonderful way of, of describing, uh, Ben's book. Uh, it's really one of my favorite wine books ever.
, bar. I, I enj, I enjoy going through it and I enjoy the, the, the graphics of it and the look of it. And, um, he's just a really, really wonderful person. He was actually on one of my first people on the podcast when I started, uh, about a year and a half ago. Let's stick with Pinola. What is it sort of about Pinola as a grape variety that for you is dreamlike? Well,
Randall: you know, one of the things I think about [00:12:00] among the many things I think about is, um, well here, what to grow in my vineyard and why. And, um, I'm kind of thinking, I've, I've generally come to the conclusion that, um, a genetically diverse population will potentially yield a much more interesting wine than a monoclonal or mono varietal.
Expression of a, of a grape. So there aren't that many mono sepage wines that really work, um, in a warmer, drier climate. Generally for complexity, you need diverse grapes to blend, but pinola is sort of one of those grapes that are complete unto itself. In other words, like pinot noir, you don't really want to, anything you add to pinot noir makes it worse.
different at least and probably more, less interesting. And I think Pinola is kind of the same thing. Um, anything else you add to it, I [00:13:00] think dilutes it and makes it less interesting. So it's one of those grapes that it's complete unto itself. Cupertino as well, I think. Um, and I love ski petino for slightly different reasons, but, um, Pinola is mysterious.
but it's, it's a grape. You know, one of the things that is also quite interesting to me is the grapes that have longevity. In other words, the ability to age exceptionally well. And that seems to be the case both for Petino and for pin. They, they are incredibly long-lived wines. Uh, I found,
Wayne: but I think it's maybe for, for different reasons.
I mean, Cupertino is not known for. Uh, you know, broad shouldered structure. It's not known for its tannins. Uh, nonetheless, it does age extremely well, um, over time. Yeah. Is it, what do you, do you think that there's any particular reason for that, for [00:14:00] Cupertino? I mean, my understanding is tannins are probably one of the main components in, in, in Ageability.
So what would you, what would you sort of, uh, attribute that, that longevity to as far as Cupertino's concerned? .
Randall: Well, you know, I don't know for sure, but I think it's received wisdom that tannins and ansin are the structure that enables wine to age. But I, I have, I'm, I have sort of a contrarian hypothesis.
I, I think there are other components that are equally valuable or are useful and aging. You know, pinot noir doesn't have a lot of tanin ju Right. And yet it actually ages better than Cabernet Sauvignon. Um, Sirrah ages extremely well. It's also not super tannic. Corn can age in incredibly well. Um, in the case of Skip Petino, it may, well, this is just going out on a limb, but Skip Petino [00:15:00] is very rich in a molecule called Rotunda.
Yes. Which is the same. molecule that exists, insam the pepper equality. And I, I suspect that may be a component, but I think there's other things going on that are not, not understood. Um, I think it's still mysterious, but there's, there's stuff, other stuff out there for sure. That
Wayne: play a role. Yeah. I'll be, yes, obviously.
Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, one of the things that I've spoken about and. , you know, you, full disclosure, I I, I have been collaborating with, uh, with Ron Chala for a couple of years. So, and, and most everybody who knows me and who know the podcast, know that, um, and the, the RO thing or is, has, has come up many, many times and it's one of those things that I think suffers from.
Over ripeness, one of those, one of those characteristics that when the grapes actually grow in a warmer, uh, environment where the [00:16:00] grapes get ripe or roone tends to disappear, at least as far as a, a flavor component is concerned. D do you find that as well in California with Cupertino? .
Randall: Well, you know, there's actually a researcher in Tolus whose, whose license plate says Rotunda.
So he and I have had a lot of conversations and he's studied the effects of. Formation of Rotunda, and it seems to me that you need cooler sites, longer season light, but not too much light. Uh, gen actually slightly shaded Vines seem to produce more rotunda than, than vines exposed to full sunlight. Um, but it's, it, it's late in its formation, so you need a season that's long enough and cool.
Um, for rotunda to form. So it does actually happen fairly late. So you want a climate that's not so warm that by leaving it on the vine so long, you're gonna have super [00:17:00] override grapes. Kind of like the mama bear, you know? Mama bear you. It ne it needs to be just, just Right.
Wayne: Exactly. Pretty well, not too hot, not too cold.
This one's just right. Correct. Yeah. So, ha have you worked with some other grape varieties in California as well? I mean, there's a legend that you took some, uh, Refosco cuttings from, uh, I think it was Spod from Dorigo. Is that a true story or am I thinking of someone
Randall: else? Um, I, I've spent a lot of time with Dorigo, but I don't think I ever got refosco from them.
Okay. I think I got. It was PLO and Verso. Not, not Refosco. It might have, you know, it's been such a long time that it may well have been, but I, I, I don't remember taking
Wayne: Refosco. It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's a, I remember someone told me the story many years ago, more than 10 years ago. Um, and I was trying to remember if, if that was you.
I thought perhaps [00:18:00] it was, have you worked with Refosco in California?
Randall: Um, I have not, there's been, you know, actually at one point I had a few vines of refosco, but it's not clear whether it was Tru Refosco, um, al also or not, but there , but I don't think it was the real, the real deal. Okay. I forget what, what the.
Wayne: Anyhow, anyhow. Uh, and and what about something like , have you ever worked with, uh, rib. .
Randall: Well, I, I brought riba, I'm not even, I think I got it from George Va, who's kind of the patron saint of RIBA was the patron saint of Riba Chiala in California. Um, and I, I love what it does. The only problem is I'm trying to grow grapes in San Juan Batista in a relatively dry climate, and Ramola seemed to need a lot of, lot more water than we had.
Mm-hmm. , um, also, were quite virus. I love it, but [00:19:00] I, I sort of decided to let other people take the, the mantle of, um, Ruba for, for the moment. , I've got plenty of other grapes. Um, I love riba, but I, I need to leave something for other people to try as.
Oh,
Wayne: okay. Um, you know, there's, it, it seems very often, and I mentioned Ola and, and we've talked about picco. These are the, the grape varieties that, in my knowledge have always been those ones that don't travel well. , as soon as you take them out of sort of their homeland.
Whether it be, you know, on the, the most, the poorest, oldest, most, you know, rockiest soils on the tops of hills in, in, uh, in rb, in that it does its best and the same with Pico. I've heard that once you move it out of, for you if you, Plant Pico and Sicily, it makes these enormous sort of table grape sized bunches.
So I was curious about how those grape varieties, , [00:20:00] developed and how they, they, they acted, how they behaved in a place so different like California. And then we can talk a little bit about how your area is sort of connected to, for you leaving Julia as far as climate or soil or what. . Sure.
Randall: Well, actually it seems my experience, which is not that extensive, is that Rebo actually travels reasonably well.
Um, Napa I, it's been grown in Napa Valley successfully. Um, the, the few fines we've had in San Juan Batista are fantastic, extremely flavorful, modest, and bunchy. You know, they don't overc crop. Um, they're just a joy to work with except, Our Dr. Droughts drought sensitive. Okay. And we don't don have the water to grow, grow them.
Um, and then as far as Pico eat, um, they, it behaves in San, I can't speak anywhere else because I don't, I don't think anyone else in California's growing pico eat. [00:21:00] Um, but it produces, you know, we have the floral abortion issue, so it produces sparse clusters. The, the, we're theoretically working with virus free vines, so the cluster is large, but it's very, very loose.
I mean, there are a lot of shot berries in the, in the cluster. Um, it doesn't produce a ginormous cluster. Um,
Wayne: that's interesting. Yeah. Um, and because I've heard that that floral abortion issue is something that is almost exclusive to freely the moment that you brought it outside of, of the area, that problem kind of resolved itself.
So it's interesting to see that it, it, it persists even in, uh, in ca. .
Randall: Well, it's, it's the issue, as you know, PCO EAT is genetically distinctive from other, um, veniro grips. It's a female grip. It's one of the very few veniro grips that actually are female. It doesn't produce pollen, its own pollen. So it [00:22:00] needs, it needs to be pollinated by adjacent vines, typically.
Um, verdu, so I understand. Or something el or hand pollinated. Otherwise, you'll have problems with floral abortion. I mean, it's interesting that it's more fertile or more, uh, fruitful elsewhere, but it, my experience at least is it's pretty consistent with freely.
Wayne: That's interesting. I've, I've heard that. Um, I think Pinot Grio, when it's planted near Pico, helps a lot with, uh, with, with this floral abortion. Yeah, you
Randall: need to grape the flowers that are precisely the same time. So that's the issue. Just timing. I understood Verso is flowers are roughly the same time, but I've never tried that.
I never observed that myself.
Wayne: Okay. So tell me a little bit about what you mentioned before about your [00:23:00] area, sort of sharing some sort of, um, soulful connection to, to freely and Etsy. Julie, I'm really curious to hear about that.
Randall: Yeah, bear in mind, I've only been to freely a few times, and the last time I was there, it was many, many years ago.
But one of the things that strikes me about freely is the independence and the independent mindedness of the people who live there and make wine there and the sort of wildness, it seems to be kind of a wild area, whatever that means. And it also seems to be kind of a border area in other, or liminal. In other words, it's kind of on the edge of different things, uh, obviously politically on.
Edge, um, geologically geographically on the edge. But it just seems different. It just seems unlike other, any other place in Italy, it doesn't even seem like a part of Italy at times. And um, San Juan is kind of the same thing. It's kind of its [00:24:00] own unique thing. There's sort of nothing like it. And it's kind of, as I mentioned, it's kind of on the edge of,
it borders four different counties. It's on the edge. Geologically, geothermally, um, You know, as I said, it's right on the, the, uh, earth, right on the San Andreas fault. And it just seems like a magical place where kind of almost anything can happen unexpectedly. So if, for those of us given to magical thinking, it's a, it's a perfect place to grow Grapes.
Wayne: So what is your sort of, uh, what is your, your end goal there? I mean, I mention, I, I, I noticed something on, on the website when you were talking about sort of trying to create a, a uniquely terroir driven wine. Can you tell me a little bit more about that sort of vision? . Yeah.
Randall: In other words, I kind of think of terroir as sort of the complexing element.
There are the soil characteristics as [00:25:00] the complexing element in wine. You know, I don't really wanna make it, strictly speaking, varietally pure wine, because in in that, in a sense, that actually defeats the purpose. I want to sort of tamp down the expression of varietal characteristic. To allow a greater expression or more articulate expression of soil characteristics.
So I'm, I'm kind of thinking. By planting a multiple genetically diverse population, that will be a good strategy for allowing the emergence of soil characteristics. And then in the farming practice, you know, everything we can do to nourish the soil microflora. Um, and have, you know, sort of the most benign conditions for, um, formation of, um, symbiotic, uh, mic, uh, micro, micro.
To the good.
Wayne: Are you, uh, biodynamic?
Randall: We have used biodynamic preps in the past. At the moment, we're not certified, but [00:26:00] we are, and we're not cert nor are we certified organic, but we do adhere to organic practice, so no fungicides, et cetera.
Wayne: Okay. It reminds me a little bit your, your idea there. It reminds me a little bit of Marcel Dice.
I don't know if you've ever gone to seeing him or if you spent some time in al. the dice man. Yes, the dice man. And he's, he's very into that whole idea of, um, you harvest the site and not the grape variety.
Randall: Correct. You know, he's an inspiration. Um, I mean, we don't do as, as radical or root as like root pruning that he does.
I mean, he does, he's, he's very radical as far as trying to enhance expression of soil characteristics. But we, we take, we take inspiration from, from his work.
Wayne: It reminded me very much of him. So you said you haven't been here in a long time. When was it the last time that you were here in freely?
Randall: Probably 25 years ago.
[00:27:00] No. Yeah. It's been, it's been a long time. Well, you're gonna have to come back. No kidding.
Wayne: Yes. Um, it would be great to, to have you and see you here in for Yuli. Do you, do you remember your first time in for Yuli? When was that?
Randall: that had to have been almost 35 years ago. Um, visiting the Dorigo. And, um, I met, remember meeting Germo who was, had the habit of dressing in Army fatigues and driving a Jeep.
And I, I had the sensation that he regarded the wine business as a type of war, um, to be waged, , the eternal vigilance. It was necessary, you know, it was a campaign, it was a military campaign. It was pretty, I thought it was pretty funny.
Wayne: Was there, I mean, other than the way he dressed, was there something about his demeanor, about his character that you, that you got that idea from as well?
Randall: Again, I think it was the [00:28:00] military fatigues and the cigar kind of vaguely reminiscent of, of Fidel Castro. Very, all, the whole, like pornography was pretty, was pretty consistent. And did,
Wayne: was there a specific reason why you came to see Dorigo here in free? , well, the
Randall: individual who arranged the visit, uh, Gerald Weisel was a, was a friend of the Dorigo, so I was trading on his, their, his relationship with them.
And so he, he made the introduction. We obviously hit it off pretty, pretty, pretty nicely. And I, I've run into Alessio since then at wine fairs and other, other places, but it's been, it's been a while since I've been to back to Fri Yuli.
Wayne: Do you remember your first Fri Yuli and wine?
Randall: You know, frankly, it, it had to have been a dorigo one, and it was probably the, strangely enough, their cabernet, um, they did, they did a, I don't know if they still do it.
Uh, I forget what it's [00:29:00] called, but it was a kind of a Bordeaux, a Bordeaux blend. Um, and I, but I, I was remember being most impressed by the pinola, uh, that knocked me out. And then actually in subsequent vintages, um, , their verso and their, their PI elite has knocked me up completely.
Wayne: So, um, it was kind of like pinola and this, you're really a, a big sort of, uh, a, a big proponent of the, the local grape varieties here and things like that.
So Pinola was sort of your, your, your main drive. So, so when did you get the idea to sort of start bringing these grape varieties back to California? , well,
Randall: immediately, I, I didn't have a very well formed idea of what to do with them in California, but I just thought, you know, I really need to have these kind of in the, in the library and I'll, I'll figure out later what to do with 'em at some point.[00:30:00]
Wayne: Okay. And, and so I know you've, you've also, um, you've also talked about Ron and you've talked about Chala Bianco. So was that your first introduction to Skip Petino or were there other wineries that you spoke about? Uh, skip Petino with.
Randall: I have had other ski tinos, but honestly, run de Chiala is far and away the most interesting expression of ski petino that I've run across, and especially the older, older vintages, which are extraordinary.
Um, as I've mentioned, I'm a rotunda freak and I love Syrah when it comes from co roti, and I love the pepperiness of ski petino. It's a funny looking . It's a funny looking grape, that's for sure. Uh, the cluster is very, very long. Um, and
Wayne: a lot of people cut the tails off, don't they? .
Randall: I, I think I, I need to get into the habit of doing that [00:31:00] as well.
We, we, we don't, we only have a few vines of ski petino, like a dozen, but, um, I'm hoping to make, maybe plant a few more and, and do a little micro vinification, uh, to see what it can do. But the flavor of the grapes is amazing. But I, I think you're, you're right, you want to cut off the bottom third of the, of the grape and maybe the wings as well, or at least the bottom third.
Cause it's a very cylin, it's a cylindrically shaped cluster. Um, so, and it's ginormous ,
Wayne: it can get very, very big. Yeah. Um, yeah, I know that there are some producers. I, I know that Ronata does not do that, but they definitely do that. Cutting off the, the, the point of the, the, the bunch and the, the two wings to sort of really get that heart as, as, uh, as ripe as possible.
Is that sort of, um, intense ripeness, really important for cuper? , ,
Randall: frankly I would be just speaking out of turn, but I'm sure that's the case. I, again, big [00:32:00] clusters take more time to, to ripen and then you lose acidity. I think you want to kind of bring it in for a safe landing within a certain timeframe.
So, um, thinking even though it's a manipulation is probably something that Serino needs most years, I would reckon.
Wayne: Are you talking about in general or just in California?
Randall: In gen, you know, I can't, I can't speak for free or at least in my, in my vineyard, I think it needs to be sent. Um, again, virus free.
Virus free vines are often wonderful, but they often produce way more crop than, uh, is a optimal, so often virus, trines need super, super thin. For their optimal expression
Wayne: virus. Free vines in general, not justino, just to be, just to be clear. Correct. Exactly, yes. Okay. Okay. So I mean, this is sort of off the track [00:33:00] here, but, um, you've mentioned sort of virus Free Vines on a number of occasions.
Is this something that, I mean, if you're talking about a grape variety like rib jla or like Cupertino, that tends to be very productive. Um, is that so? This is sort of viral element. Is this something that's almost kind of necessary in the, the, in keeping the, the vigor down on the grapes or, uh, is, is really what you're looking for in all cases, vines that are virus free.
Randall: Well, you know, again, they would murder me at uc Davis for, for saying this, but I, I think you're, you're right. I think virus free comes with at a price. And, and again, sometimes it's counterintuitive, but I think sometimes virus finds will produce more interesting grapes than virus free vines. Um, there's a price for it, of course, like short, short, shortened life, spann of [00:34:00] wine.
But I, I think that the quest. This mythical virus free status, um, doesn't always re down to, um, better wine quality on ala. I wish life were simpler. ,
Wayne: nothing is, you know, nothing is, is clear cut in the world of wine. I mean, and obviously I do not have the type of depth of knowledge and experience as far as, as, uh, you know, wine making and, and vineyard practices are concerned.
But when I do teach my wine classes, the first thing that I always teach the folks who come and, and taste with me is there are. Right answers and wine. The, the answer to every question in wine is, it depends. So yeah, it is quite complicated.
Randall: Yep. I agree.
Wayne: Are there some other, um, free Liam producers who you are, uh, who you really, really like?
We've mentioned Dorigo, we rent, we've mentioned Chala. Are there any other ones that are sort of, uh, on your, on your list, big or. ? [00:35:00]
Randall: Well, unfortunately I really like Baran. Uh, I'm not a big fan of his politics, but, um, his wines are, are unfortunately really good. Um, I like Venek quite a bit. Uh, Ronco del del Yitz quite a bit, um, de Roman as well.
Um, then of course the, the orange contingent Grovner, I like, uh, Racon as.
Wayne: Oh, okay. So that, that whole um, uh, slavia troupe up there who I think are, are, are really, really, uh, interesting in the sense that they have turned a very tiny area with only more or less seven producers who are doing. A very specific type of wine into a global destination for, for wine.
Yeah. And I think that's a, that's a model for a place like say Ulto I think that, [00:36:00] Type of concentration on place and a specific product is, uh, really important to the future of, of freely and
Randall: wine.
Yep. Agreed.
Wayne: , are there any freely wines. Haven't tried that you've, you've wanted to try?
Randall: Uh, I don't think so. I just want to broaden. I want to taste as many pins and more kinos as I possibly can, just to, just to understand the possibility of the grape. So there's a whole world out there. Um, it's very hard. Pilo is not the easiest wine to find in, in K or in the, in the us. Um, Not that much seems to be exported, but I'm, I'm trying to broaden my experience with that for sure.
Wayne: Do we, do we make too many different kinds of wines in Fri Yuli in your opinion? I
Randall: don't, no. Hardly really? Maybe not in your [00:37:00] I don't think so. I mean, this is coming from a eclectic human, human being. Um, I don't think. I mean, maybe for, maybe you don't need to sell every single wine in every market, but, I mean, if, if the wine is interesting and a useful expression of the, of the variety, why not? Um, I mean, I guess ultimately at the end of the day, if the winery can't sell all the, all the wines it makes, it's probably making too many wines. But, um, winemakers also have to stay interested and engaged. And some, some winemakers are more engaged by having more variety and others just like life a little bit simpler.
So you have to do what works for yourself.
Wayne: Yeah. There seems to be sort of two different argument. in for Yuli when we talk about, because you know, we could do better on the international sort of market and the international scale. I mean, you said it wasn't difficult to try to find [00:38:00] Pinola. I'm sure it's also difficult to find in FRI in California, but there's sort of two schools and there's the one school that says we need to keep and promote and sell and continue to make all of these different varieties simply because th they're actually quite good.
Um, yes. And then there's another side that says there's too many different types, types of wine. Free Yuli doesn't have sort of a focused image in the international market. Do you think that there's any merit to either one of those arguments?
Randall: There's merits, both arguments. Find myself more inclined to favor the first argument than the second.
But you know, certainly then, , there's less of a need for international varieties. I, I just don't know that, you know, having said that, uh, freely makes very nice souvignon, um, extremely nice sauven. Um, but I, I would stay away from [00:39:00] international varieties. I think that's, and, and actually pretty good as well.
Um, but I think the indigenous grapes are the ones that need to, obviously need to be focused on. So I
Wayne: guess if some, Some of the things to be sort of, you know, if you were going to, if you were the one who was sort of saying, what, what should you leave behind? It would be sort of, uh, the Cabernet, sauvignons, the Cabernet Francs.
The Chardonnays, things like that. Exactly. You find all over and concentrate on. native grape varieties and some of those international varieties that tend to do really well here. I always say yes, there are great merlott in, in, uh, in caleo. Um, there are great sauvignon blancs all over for Yuli. Um, so yeah, I don't see any reason why we should eliminate those, but we should, I think, pay a little bit more attention to, uh, local grape varieties.
And I think that's happening. Good
Randall: as it should.
Wayne: I believe that that's happening. Yeah, definitely. Um, are there [00:40:00] any winemakers in California that have a fian background? Are there any like people from Friuli that make wine in in California?
Randall: There? There must be, but I don't know. You don't know who they might be?
I know, I know there's people who love for yoani grapes like Steve Mathison. in Lake George Fair. But, um, honestly, I don't know anyone offhand.
Wayne: Okay. And your, your other winery or your other project, the language of Yes. Is that somehow connected with Popo Laumum, kind
Randall: of not quite at the hip, tangentially connected.
I mean, I'm trying. Apply some of the lessons I learned Atum to the work at language of Yes. But the language of Yes is is more, not surprisingly, more conservative, um, kind of staying within the bounds of, um, Ron and Southern France having been said that. [00:41:00] Um, language of yes is the first winery in California that I know that actually released a, uh, ti tiran and were planting more Tiran.
Um, somehow I persuaded the folks at Gallo that Tiran is the answer. Um, I've persuaded myself to Tiran is, is the answer for California for, uh, In other words, how do you make a elegant wine in a warm, dry climate, uh, such as we find in California? So I think Tiran has great potential. Um, and that's one of the things that's happening with language of yes.
It's,
Wayne: it's interesting because when I, when I saw, you know, obviously I follow you on, on, on the social media and, , and when I saw the language of yes, the first person who I thought of was Ben Little, it sounds so much like the name, what Ben Little would give to a winery.
Randall: Well, I mean, I think his whole book on Pinola is, is basically, uh, of the language of Yes. I mean, [00:42:00] I think Pinola is the grape of, yes. I mean, there's just something, everything he about the book, about the grape is affirmative.
Wayne: Tell me more about that. That's very interesting.
Randall: I mean, again, without being too mystical or too new agey about it, there's, there's, um, I have this idea that wines can possess a sort of life force and you can be sort of as mystical about that idea as you, as you want to be. But in fact, what it is, is its ability to age and live over a long period of time.
And I, Pinola has that sort of. Liveliness, um, life force to it that I think is really, really, really special. And, um, those are the kinds of wines that, again, you can't say this on a, on a wine label, but it's the kind of wines that inspire us and. [00:43:00] Sort of en ener energize us and enliven us. Again, you can't say that, but um, I think it's true.
Certain wines really kind of improve the quality of your life, and that's, those are the kinds of wines I'm interested in. . So
Wayne: you're literally, because when I, when, when you first started saying that, I was thinking more along the lines of, you know, that enliven us. So from an logical point of view, but you're literally talking about the, the consumption of this wine enlivens us.
Correct?
Randall: Exactly, yes.
Wayne: Okay. Yes. The language of, yes, I would love to get you and. In a room together and just sort of bottle of pinola on the table. I'll just shut up and listen to you guys talk. Cause I think that would be an amazing conversation.
Randall: Well, it will happen one of these days for sure. Um, hopefully after I've got or.
At some point when I have some products, [00:44:00] some, some pinola to show, or, you know, some of these oddball pinola seedlings, and I'm obviously very curious to see how much variability there is in the seedlings. Whether any of them taste at all, like free, like, uh, pinola or, or not. Um, actually the, the oddball, the oddly outliers are the ones that are possibly the most interesting.
so we'll, we'll see. That's a few years away yet. Yeah. I was
Wayne: gonna ask, how long are we gonna have to wait for that? , well, the
Randall: seeds just, just came in a few months ago and they're, they're just coming out of the refrigerator, um, in the next couple of weeks, and they're gonna be germinated at the nursery, so it's gonna be a few years yet.
Alas. Oh, okay.
Wayne: It's, um, I'm, I don't know if I have that kind of patience, Randall .
Randall: Well, you don't, you don't have any choice. Exactly. Keep your, keep your pants on .
Wayne: I will, I will try. I will [00:45:00] try. Well, uh, yeah, let's hope that the, the conversation, uh, Um, continues in the conversation between you and Ben, which I hope to be a part of, or at least be witness to, um, happens before the wines.
Uh, the before the pinola is, is ready to go. ,
Randall: any, any old time n next time in for Yuli for sure.
Wayne: Well, I hope you, I hope you come, I hope 2023 is, is the year that you, you get out here. That would be wonderful. And I would, I would love it if you could, you know, stomp in and, uh, have another little chat here at, uh, at Laveda before we go.
And I know you, you have plenty of things to do. You're just starting off your day in California. Um, I believe. Thing that I was really curious about, cuz I remember this when I was still working in New York City many years ago. Was it not you who staged that? Uh, the funeral for corks, um, in New York City.
Was it you who put like, that there was like a, a coffin in Grand Central [00:46:00] Station where people would throw corks into? Was that you
Randall: in Indeed it was. Yes. The, the funeral for Mr. Tier .
Wayne: Um, Do you still believe that, that that screw caps are the future? Do you still think that Cork is on the way out? Well, you
Randall: know, it's interesting.
I love the aesthetic of cork. I love the tradition of cork, but frankly, screw caps. Uh, I think by far are, are the superior closure relative to cork. So, um, I'm, I'm still a true believer in screw caps. Um, I'm hoping that I will accomplish more in life than just being a great popularizer of screw caps, but I, I, I believe in them.
I think they're, I think they're great. Well, I'm
Wayne: sure you, your legacy will not just be promoting screw caps. I am. .
Randall: Let's hope. Let
Wayne: us hope. Yeah, let us hope. That's a great, so you, even for something like older, you know, wines like a, a pinola, you would, uh, prefer to have that [00:47:00] age under a screw cab rather than a, than a, a traditional cork.
Randall: Yeah. It's a misconception that wines don't age under screw cap. They actually live longer under screw cap relative to to corks. They, their, their maturation is a little different than, than that of a cork closure. It's a slower evolution and it tends to be more backward at the beginning, but it will go, I reckon 50% the, the wines will live 50% longer in screw cap compared to cork, which is nont trivial.
Wayne: Wow. Okay. That's fantastic. Uh, cuz I, I remember having conversations about whether or not wine aging in the model is an aerobic or an anaerobic process and how, how much transpiration of oxygen is there through, um, a cork with a wax seal, which is basically how every vintage port is closed. Um, yet those wines develop for decades and decades.
So, You [00:48:00] know, is that sort of narrative of you must have oxygen transpiration for a wine to age? Is that just not true? ,
Randall: it's not true. Yeah. Development of bottle, bouquet and complexity is a totally anaerobic process. It does not require oxygen. And a d a dense cork with a, with wax seal on top of it is pretty much what you get with, um, screw cap.
So the amount of oxygen ingress is, is pretty darn minimal, um, and not necessary for the aging process. .
Wayne: Well, that is perfect. That is, is what I've been sort of saying for many years, and I am honored to have you sort of vindicate me, um, regarding that, , , that technical piece of information there.
, Randall, I am going to let you go. , I really, really appreciate the time that you've spent with me here. , my pleasure. And, um, I hope to see you in for you, [00:49:00] Lee, as soon as possible.
Randall: Sounds, sounds great.
Wayne: All right. Thanks
Randall: again, Randall. My pleasure, man. Take care, Wayne. You too. Cheers. Bye-Bye.