Randall Grahm is an ICON in the world of wine and a huge fan of Friuian grape varieties. In this episode from 2023, Randall and I talk about Picolit crossed with Ciliegiolo, how Pignolo is "Dremlike" and the beauty of Schioppettino. We also discuss his newest projects in California, Popolochum and The Language of Yes. Includes some updated info about these projects in 2024!
[00:00:19] Welcome to La Taverna Friuli Wines, the definitive podcast on wines from Friuli Venezia Giulia.
[00:00:27] I'm your host, Wayne Young.
[00:00:40] Hey there, Friuli Wine fans.
[00:00:43] This is Wayne Young, La Taverna, coming at you with the best of this week.
[00:00:49] Going back to January 2023 for a wonderful conversation that I had with one of my idols
[00:00:57] in the wine world, Mr. Randall Graham.
[00:01:00] I believe this is a merits, a best of here on La Taverna.
[00:01:06] Those of you who have not heard this wonderful conversation with Randall, really happy to repropose this.
[00:01:13] Just for the occasion, I did reach out to Randall to see if there's been any significant developments
[00:01:22] with Popolo Shum, the winery that we talk about during the podcast.
[00:01:27] He was nice enough to get back to me and tell me that unfortunately they do have some problems
[00:01:31] with the Pignolo seedlings that they are trying to propagate.
[00:01:35] And the Ciglia Giolo Piccoli crossing that he was working on also has not germinated well.
[00:01:43] And he has been growing Scipitino and that has been fairly successful, but some problems with fruit sets.
[00:01:49] So maybe we could put them in touch with the Rapuzzi family to see if we can't find a solution for that problem.
[00:01:57] But he's had some other success at Popolo Shum with some other French varieties, some Petit Mensang, Rue K, Grenache Noir,
[00:02:06] but also some problems with wild turkeys, which unfortunately eating his grapes,
[00:02:11] just like we have problems here in Freely with deer and boar and birds.
[00:02:16] So same the world over.
[00:02:19] But yeah, he said the quality was very, very good.
[00:02:22] And I was really happy to hear from him that he's going ahead with his Popolo Shum project.
[00:02:27] But I do want to propose one thing before we get into the best of, and that is another wine of the week.
[00:02:39] And the wine of the week this week, I cannot deny this was a weekend where we had a wonderful event
[00:02:57] with Ronchi di Chala and with Odeiro from Piemonte.
[00:03:03] And during a special event that we had at Ronchi di Chala, we were very lucky to taste together,
[00:03:13] along with some good friends and some journalists and winemakers and sommeliers from all over the Udine area,
[00:03:20] some great wines from Ronchi di Chala.
[00:03:23] But for me, the real treat was a 1989 Barolo from Odeiro.
[00:03:29] It was the Vigna Rionda from Odeiro that we tried out of Magnum.
[00:03:36] As the great Maurizio Castelli once said,
[00:03:38] Sono i manium che dicono la verità.
[00:03:42] And really, I could believe it.
[00:03:43] Vigna Rionda being a warmer vineyard, riper grapes, unbelievable Barolo.
[00:03:50] Beautifully round and delicious and developed that didn't seem to be 25?
[00:03:57] No, 1989, 35 years old.
[00:04:02] Unbelievable, beautiful wine.
[00:04:03] That is definitely my wine of the week.
[00:04:06] Maybe even wine of the month could be wine of the year.
[00:04:10] But anyway, without further ado, let's step back in time to January 2023
[00:04:18] for this interesting interview with icon Randall Graham.
[00:04:35] Welcome to La Taverna for Uli Wines.
[00:04:39] I am your host, Wayne Young.
[00:04:41] And boy, oh boy, am I excited today.
[00:04:45] I am super stoked to have a very, very important person in the world of wine.
[00:04:51] And someone who was sort of part of my early education of wine,
[00:04:56] because I worked at Wine Spectator many, many years ago.
[00:05:00] Winemaker Randall Graham.
[00:05:02] Thank you, Randall.
[00:05:03] Can I call you Randall?
[00:05:05] But of course.
[00:05:07] Or would you prefer Mr. Graham?
[00:05:09] I wonder if my dad is in the room with Mr. Graham.
[00:05:13] Okay.
[00:05:14] Thank you, Randall, for spending some time with us today.
[00:05:17] I'm going to just like jump right into it here because, you know,
[00:05:21] you're so well known as sort of the Rhone Ranger and working with Bonnie Dune
[00:05:27] and La Sigre de Volante and all those sort of things.
[00:05:29] But I really wanted to start off talking about your more recent projects,
[00:05:34] which are the Language of Yes, very interesting name there.
[00:05:38] And another one called Popelotium.
[00:05:41] Am I pronouncing that correctly?
[00:05:44] Unfortunately not.
[00:05:45] It's actually Popelotium.
[00:05:48] Popelotium.
[00:05:50] Popelotium, which is a Mutsun Indian name for the settlement around San Juan Bautista.
[00:05:56] But the alternative translation of the word is paradise,
[00:06:00] which is actually quite accurate.
[00:06:02] Oh, okay.
[00:06:03] So literally it is a place that is like paradise.
[00:06:07] I think so.
[00:06:09] Popelotium.
[00:06:11] Popelotium, yes.
[00:06:12] Okay.
[00:06:12] So can you tell me a little bit about paradise, please?
[00:06:16] I'm really interested.
[00:06:19] Well, it's a funny place.
[00:06:22] It's in San Benito County, which is kind of a mysterious county.
[00:06:25] And it's an area that it's known for its seismic activity where one part of the property,
[00:06:31] the northern boundary of the property is in fact the San Andreas Fault.
[00:06:36] So it's really kind of an intersection of a lot of different influences, political, geological, cultural.
[00:06:45] It's really kind of an epicenter.
[00:06:48] And at some point we should talk about why it reminds me of Friuli.
[00:06:53] I mean, it really isn't Friuli, but there's something psychically, spiritually that is reminiscent of Friuli.
[00:07:01] Well, I definitely want to talk about that for sure.
[00:07:04] Yes.
[00:07:06] So anyways, I, I came to Popelotium or San Juan Batista because I actually dreamt about the place.
[00:07:14] And I went on a lot of realtor dates.
[00:07:16] And when I saw it, I realized I had actually seen it in a dream.
[00:07:21] So, you know, I've been sort of on the lifelong quest for terroir.
[00:07:25] And if there isn't, if there wasn't this, this kind of sign, um, I don't think there's anything more definitive I could ask.
[00:07:34] So you literally dreamed of this place.
[00:07:36] And when you saw it, you were like, yep, that's the one that I saw in my dream.
[00:07:40] Yep. That's pretty much how it happened.
[00:07:42] And I'm not a woo woo woo kind of guy particularly, but, but that's, that's how it happened.
[00:07:49] Very interesting.
[00:07:50] Wow.
[00:07:51] So just because I'm, and I'm going to admit this right now, I'm very ignorant as far as Californian geography is concerned.
[00:08:00] I've been so steeped in Friuli and Italian wine for so many years.
[00:08:05] Could you just give us an idea of where we're talking about in California?
[00:08:10] Yeah.
[00:08:10] Yeah.
[00:08:11] It's in the central coast.
[00:08:12] It's not far from the town of Gilroy, not far from the town of Santa Cruz.
[00:08:17] It's about 45 minutes south east of Santa Cruz.
[00:08:21] Okay.
[00:08:22] So it's coastal, it's mild and climate, um, long growing season.
[00:08:29] It's really kind of an, I, the only problem, we don't get a lot of rain.
[00:08:32] We don't get this year.
[00:08:33] We were getting a lot of rain, but in general, that's the only tragic flaw that the area has is not quite enough rain.
[00:08:41] You've been getting some pretty horrible weather there recently.
[00:08:43] No, there's been some sort of bomb cyclone that's gone through.
[00:08:46] Yeah.
[00:08:46] We had a bomb cyclone yesterday.
[00:08:48] That was pretty exciting.
[00:08:51] Any damage or was that, uh, did that sort of come and go without any major hassle?
[00:08:56] Well, we were fine.
[00:08:58] The vineyard is fine.
[00:08:58] My house in Santa Cruz is fine.
[00:09:00] There's a town just south of here called Capitola, which got pretty nailed.
[00:09:05] The wharf got pretty destroyed.
[00:09:08] Uh, the waterfront properties, the, um, businesses got pretty nailed.
[00:09:14] Wow.
[00:09:14] So it's kind of a funny place.
[00:09:17] These disasters happen about every 10 years or so.
[00:09:21] Uh, these types of, of sort of tropical hurricane type storms there.
[00:09:26] Well, fires or.
[00:09:28] Oh, right.
[00:09:28] Or some earthquakes or storms.
[00:09:33] Something happens about every 10 years in Santa Cruz.
[00:09:37] It seems.
[00:09:37] Oh, in Santa Cruz particularly.
[00:09:39] Okay.
[00:09:40] So you, you saw this place in a dream where you were searching for a winery property for yourself.
[00:09:47] Well, I was, and I was actually slightly misguided.
[00:09:50] Or differently guided, I guess at the time I was still under the imagining, imagination that I was going to produce the great American Pinot Noir.
[00:10:00] And this was of course a total delusion on my part or total misstep.
[00:10:06] Um, I realized that, yeah, that's hard and interesting, but there are more worthwhile things to pursue than trying to make yet another Burgundy in California.
[00:10:18] A lot of other people have tried to do that.
[00:10:20] And I thought, you know, I could actually maybe do something more original than try to make a great Pinot.
[00:10:27] Okay.
[00:10:28] So I, so I am doing some original things, um, in Popolo Shum.
[00:10:32] So some of, maybe they're crazy.
[00:10:34] Um, but maybe, maybe not.
[00:10:36] Well, well, it's a little early, too early to tell.
[00:10:39] Actually, it's not too early to tell.
[00:10:41] So, so far, so good.
[00:10:42] Um, we're growing conventional grapes like Grenache Blanc and Grenache Gris.
[00:10:50] And the results are wonderful.
[00:10:52] We're growing some exotic varieties like Tiburin and Rue Kay.
[00:10:58] And of course, some Furulani grapes, um, which we're using in our breeding program because we're breeding, we're, we're doing two things that are kind of key.
[00:11:09] One, we're doing self-crosses, um, of Syrah or Syrine and Tibur, Tiburin.
[00:11:15] And, um, this funny grape called Pignolo.
[00:11:19] Uh huh.
[00:11:20] So you're crossing Syrah with Pignolo?
[00:11:24] No, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:11:26] We're crossing the, the variety with it, with itself.
[00:11:29] Ah, okay.
[00:11:30] So it's the rough Pignolo self-crossed.
[00:11:33] And then we're doing some proper breeding where we're actually taking two lineages and that's Chigliaggiuolo and Picolit.
[00:11:41] Um, we're doing the actual proper breeding.
[00:11:44] Between those two.
[00:11:47] Yes, exactly.
[00:11:48] Wow.
[00:11:49] That's very interesting.
[00:11:50] What are you, are you looking for a white grape there or a pink skinned grape?
[00:11:54] Or what are you looking for by crossing Chigliaggiuolo and Picolit?
[00:11:58] You know, I'm looking for something extraordinary, but I don't have a fixed idea of what it's going to look like.
[00:12:04] Some of the grapes are going to be red.
[00:12:06] Some of them are going to be white.
[00:12:08] Maybe a few of them will be pink.
[00:12:09] Probably not.
[00:12:11] That's their pink grapes are pretty rare.
[00:12:12] Um, and then the question is of course, then what?
[00:12:17] Do you keep the red grapes separate?
[00:12:19] Do you keep the white grapes separate?
[00:12:20] Do you mix them all together?
[00:12:21] What do you do?
[00:12:23] Um, because the project in a sense is sort of open.
[00:12:28] Um, in other words, when you, when people breed grapes, generally they're trying to solve a problem.
[00:12:34] In other words, they like the grape, but they want to fix one thing and they want it to ripen earlier or later.
[00:12:41] Or have higher acid, lower acid or bigger bunch, smaller bunch, looser bunch.
[00:12:47] They're not trying to, they're not trying to discover something totally brand new in general.
[00:12:52] Okay.
[00:12:52] So this is really a journey of exploration.
[00:12:56] And I honestly have no idea where it's going to lead.
[00:13:00] Wow.
[00:13:01] So, I mean, I'm doing a little bit of research before our conversation.
[00:13:05] I saw something along the lines of 10,000 grape varieties that you're working with there.
[00:13:11] Oh, no, we don't have 10,000.
[00:13:13] Actually, we almost have that many.
[00:13:15] Um, not quite.
[00:13:17] Every, every cross is a new variety.
[00:13:20] So even the self-cross, even the self-crosses are new varieties.
[00:13:25] Um, they're for example, Syrah ish, but not necessarily Syrah.
[00:13:32] So the self-crosses, you know, something interesting in the case of Syrah, it has a white grape,
[00:13:39] a white parent and a red parent, um, Mandus, Blanche and Duretza.
[00:13:45] So it turns out in the white grape is a, is a recessive gene.
[00:13:49] So 25% of the offspring are white grapes, um, which is interesting.
[00:13:55] That is interesting.
[00:13:56] I could, and the white grapes are actually super cool and super, I think more interesting than the reds in the case of Syrah.
[00:14:05] Um, we'll see what happens, um, with the Chilli e Cholo Piccoli.
[00:14:12] Very interesting.
[00:14:13] And you, so we mentioned Piccoli.
[00:14:14] Are there any other Friulian varieties that you're working with there?
[00:14:18] Well, I have, you know, we have a little block and kind of a wine library.
[00:14:23] I've got, um, Schiopatino, of course.
[00:14:27] Um, I, once upon a time I had Verduzzo.
[00:14:31] Unfortunately, it's a lot, it's a painful story.
[00:14:33] I, I love Verduzzo, but, um, something bad happened to the Verduzzo.
[00:14:38] It got bulldozed inadvertently, which was really important.
[00:14:42] Oh no.
[00:14:43] And there is no more Verduzzo in California at the moment, which is really tragic.
[00:14:48] That is tragic.
[00:14:49] Um, yes.
[00:14:51] And of course, as I said, we're, we're working with Pignolo doing a very ambitious Pignolo project.
[00:14:58] I actually imported the seeds from Friuli.
[00:15:01] And you're, the Pignolo seeds.
[00:15:05] Correct.
[00:15:06] Okay.
[00:15:07] Right, right from the source.
[00:15:09] Have you seen, uh, Ben Little's book on, on Pignolo?
[00:15:14] I have indeed.
[00:15:16] Um, Ben actually was the source of the seeds.
[00:15:19] He, he organized the seeds, which was ordinary.
[00:15:24] And his book is extraordinary.
[00:15:26] Uh, Pignolo is extraordinary.
[00:15:28] There's something very dreamlike about his book.
[00:15:32] And there's something very dreamlike about Pignolo.
[00:15:34] I think it's, uh, he was definitely the right person to write the book on, on Pignolo.
[00:15:40] Well, he's, he's also an extraordinary guy.
[00:15:42] Yeah.
[00:15:43] Dreamlike, I think is a really wonderful way of, of describing, uh, Ben's book.
[00:15:48] Uh, it's really one of my favorite wine books ever, bar none.
[00:15:52] I, I, I enjoy, I enjoy going through it and I enjoy the, the, the graphics of it and the look of it.
[00:15:58] And, um, he's just a really, really wonderful person.
[00:16:00] He was actually on one of my first people on the podcast when I started about a year and a half ago.
[00:16:05] So let's stick with Pignolo.
[00:16:07] What is it sort of about Pignolo as a grape variety that for you is dreamlike?
[00:16:15] Well, you know, one of the things that I think about among the many things I think about is, um, what to grow in my vineyard and why.
[00:16:25] Um, and, um, um, I'm kind of thinking I've, I've generally come to the conclusion that, um, a genetically diverse population will potentially yield a much more interesting wine than a monoclonal or monovarietal, um, expression of a grape.
[00:16:45] So there aren't that many monosipage wines that really work, um, in a warmer, drier climate generally for complexity.
[00:16:54] You need diverse grapes to blend, but Pignolo is sort of one of those grapes that are complete unto itself.
[00:17:03] In other words, like Pinot Noir, you don't really want to, anything you add to Pinot Noir makes it worse, different, at least, and probably more, less interesting.
[00:17:12] And I think Pignolo is kind of the same thing.
[00:17:16] Um, anything else you add to it, I think dilutes it and makes it less interesting.
[00:17:21] So it's one of those grapes that it's complete unto itself.
[00:17:25] Scupatino as well, I think.
[00:17:27] Um, and I love Scupatino for slightly different reasons, but, um, Pignolo is mysterious.
[00:17:35] Um, but it's, it's a great, you know, one of the things that is also quite interesting to me is the grape.
[00:17:42] It's a great place for a variety of grapes that have longevity.
[00:17:44] In other words, the ability to age exceptionally well.
[00:17:47] And that seems to be the case.
[00:17:49] Both for Scupatino and for Pignolo, they are incredibly long lived wines.
[00:17:55] Uh, I found.
[00:17:57] But I think it's maybe for, for different reasons.
[00:17:59] I mean, Scupatino is not known for its, uh, you know, broad shouldered structure.
[00:18:05] It's not known for its tannins.
[00:18:08] Uh, nonetheless, it does age extremely well, um, over time.
[00:18:13] Yeah.
[00:18:14] Is it, what do you, do you think that there's any particular reason for that for Scupatino?
[00:18:18] I mean, my understanding is tannins are probably one of the main components in, in, in age ability.
[00:18:25] So what would you, what would you sort of, uh, uh, uh, attribute that, that longevity to, as far as Scupatino is concerned?
[00:18:34] Well, you know, I don't know for sure, but I think it's received wisdom that tannins and anthocyanins are the structure that enables wine to age.
[00:18:44] But I, I have to, I'm, I have sort of a contrarian hypothesis.
[00:18:47] And so I think there are other components that are equally valuable or useful and aging, you know, Pinot Noir doesn't have a lot of tannin.
[00:18:55] Right.
[00:18:56] And yet it actually ages better than Cabernet Sauvignon.
[00:19:00] Syrah ages extremely well.
[00:19:01] It's also not super tannic.
[00:19:04] Grenache can age incredibly well.
[00:19:06] Um, in the case of Scupatino, it may well, this is just going out on a limb, but Scupatino,
[00:19:14] Scupatino is very rich in a molecule called rotundone.
[00:19:17] Yes.
[00:19:18] Which is the molecule that exists in Syrah, the peppery quality.
[00:19:23] And I, I suspect that may be a component, but I think there's other things going on that are not, not understood.
[00:19:31] Um, I think it's still mysterious, but there's, there's stuff, other stuff out there for sure.
[00:19:36] That play a role.
[00:19:38] Yeah.
[00:19:39] I'll be, yes, obviously.
[00:19:40] Yeah.
[00:19:40] I, you know, one of the things that I've spoken about and, and, you know,
[00:19:44] you know, full disclosure, I, I have been collaborating with, uh, with Ronkity Chala for a couple of years.
[00:19:50] So, and, and most everybody who knows me and who know the podcast know that.
[00:19:54] And, uh, the, the, the rotundone thing or is, has, has come up many, many times.
[00:19:59] And it's one of those things that I think suffers from over ripeness.
[00:20:04] One of those, one of those characteristics that when the grapes actually grow in a warmer, uh, environment where the grapes get riper, rotundone tends to disappear, at least as far as a, a flavor component is concerned.
[00:20:19] Do you find that as well in California with Schiopatino?
[00:20:23] Well, you know, there's actually a researcher in Toulouse whose, whose license plate says rotundone.
[00:20:30] So he and I have had a lot of conversations and he's studied the effects of formation of rotundone.
[00:20:37] And it seems to me that you need cooler sites, longer season, light, but not too much light.
[00:20:45] Uh, actually slightly shaded vines seem to produce more rotundone than, than vines exposed to full sunlight.
[00:20:54] Um, but it's, it's late in its formation.
[00:20:57] So you need a season that's long enough and cool enough, um, for rotundone to form.
[00:21:04] So it does actually happen fairly late.
[00:21:06] So you want a climate that's not so warm that, but by leaving it on the vine so long, you're going to have super overrigh grapes.
[00:21:14] It's kind of like the mama, you know, mama bear, you know, it needs to be just right.
[00:21:20] Exactly.
[00:21:21] Well, not too hot, not too cold.
[00:21:23] This one's just right.
[00:21:24] Correct.
[00:21:25] Yeah.
[00:21:26] So have you worked with some other grape varieties in California as well?
[00:21:31] I mean, there's a legend that you took some, uh, uh, rifosco cuttings from, uh, I think it was Monsclepade from Dorigo.
[00:21:41] Is that a true story or am I thinking of someone else?
[00:21:45] Um, I, I've spent a lot of time with Dorigo, but I don't think I ever got rifosco from them.
[00:21:50] I think I got Pignolo.
[00:21:51] It was Pignolo and Verduzzo, not, not rifosco.
[00:21:56] It might've, you know, it's been such a long time that may well have been, but I, I don't remember taking rifosco.
[00:22:02] It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's an, I remember someone told me the story many years ago, more than 10 years ago.
[00:22:08] Um, and as I was trying to remember if, if that was you, I thought perhaps it was, have you worked with rifosco in California?
[00:22:16] I have not.
[00:22:17] There's been, you know, actually at one point I had a few vines of rifosco, but it's not clear whether it was true rifosco.
[00:22:26] Um, al peduncle or also or not, but there, but I don't think it was the real, the real deal.
[00:22:32] Okay.
[00:22:33] I forget what, what the, anyhow.
[00:22:35] Anyhow.
[00:22:35] Uh, and, and what about something like Ribola Jalla?
[00:22:38] Have you ever worked with a Ribola?
[00:22:41] Well, I, I brought Ribola.
[00:22:43] I'm not even, I think I got it from George Ver, who's kind of the patron saint of Ribola, was the patron saint of Ribola Jalla in California.
[00:22:52] Um, and I, I love what it does.
[00:22:56] The only problem is I'm trying to grow grapes in San Juan Batista in a relatively dry climate.
[00:23:03] Ribola seemed to need a lot of, a lot more water than we had.
[00:23:06] Um, also the vines were quite virus.
[00:23:09] I love it, but I, I sort of decided to let other people take the mantle of Ribola for, for the moment.
[00:23:17] I've got plenty of other grapes.
[00:23:19] Um, I love Ribola, but I, I need to leave something for other people to try as well.
[00:23:24] Okay.
[00:23:26] Um, you know, there's, it, it seems very often that I mentioned Ribola and we've talked about Picolit.
[00:23:32] These are the, the grape varieties that in my knowledge have always been those ones that don't travel well.
[00:23:37] As soon as you take them out of sort of their homeland, uh, whether it be, you know, uh, Ribola Jalla on the most, the poorest, oldest, most, you know, uh, rockiest soils on the tops of hills in, in, uh, in Collioid Berda and Collioid Intali that it does its best.
[00:23:55] And the same with Picolit, I've heard that once you move it out of Friuli, if you plant Picolit in Sicily, it makes these enormous sort of table grape sized bunches.
[00:24:06] So I was curious about how those grape varieties developed and how they, they, they acted, how they behaved in a place so different like California.
[00:24:16] And then we can talk a little bit about how your area is sort of connected to Friuli Venezia Giulia as far as climate or soil or whatever.
[00:24:25] Sure.
[00:24:26] Well, actually it seems my experience, which is not that extensive is that Ribola actually travels reasonably well.
[00:24:34] Um, Napa, it's been growing in Napa Valley successfully.
[00:24:39] Um, the few finds we've had in San Juan Batista are fantastic, extremely flavorful, modest and bunchy.
[00:24:48] You know, they don't over crop.
[00:24:50] Um, they're just a joy to work with except they just.
[00:24:54] Our Drury Droughts, drought sensitive.
[00:24:57] Okay.
[00:24:57] We don't have the water to grow, grow them.
[00:25:01] Um, and then as far as Picolit, um, they, it behaves in San Juan.
[00:25:06] I can't speak anywhere else because I don't, I don't think anyone else in California is growing Picolit.
[00:25:11] Um, but it produces, you know, we have the floral abortion issue.
[00:25:16] So it produces sparse clusters.
[00:25:18] Um, the, the, we're theoretically working with virus free vines.
[00:25:24] So the cluster is large, but it's very, very loose.
[00:25:29] I mean, there are a lot of shot berries in the, in the cluster.
[00:25:32] Um, doesn't produce a ginormous cluster.
[00:25:35] That's interesting.
[00:25:36] Yeah.
[00:25:37] Um, and I, because I've heard that that floral abortion issue is something that is almost exclusive
[00:25:43] to free willy.
[00:25:44] The moment that you brought it outside of, of the area, that problem kind of resolved itself.
[00:25:50] So it's interesting to see that it, it, it persists even in, uh, in California.
[00:25:55] Well, it's, it's the issue, as you know, Picolit is genetically distinctive from other, um, vinifera
[00:26:03] grapes.
[00:26:03] It's a female grape.
[00:26:04] It's one of the very few vinifera grapes that actually are female.
[00:26:08] It doesn't produce pollen, its own pollen.
[00:26:11] So it needs, it needs to be pollinated by adjacent vines.
[00:26:15] Typically, um, Verduzzo I understand or something out or hand pollinated.
[00:26:20] Otherwise you'll have problems of floral abortion.
[00:26:23] I mean, it's interesting that it's more fertile or more, uh, fruitful elsewhere, but my experience
[00:26:34] at least is it's pretty consistent with friuli.
[00:26:37] That's interesting.
[00:26:38] I've, I've heard that, um, I think Pinot Grigio when it's planted near Picolit helps a lot
[00:26:45] with, uh, with, with this floral abortion problem.
[00:26:49] Yeah.
[00:26:50] You need to grape the flowers at precisely the same time.
[00:26:53] So that's the issue.
[00:26:55] That's what I mean.
[00:26:56] I understood.
[00:26:58] Reduzzo is flowers roughly the same time, but I've never tried that.
[00:27:02] I never observed that myself.
[00:27:05] Okay.
[00:27:06] Um, so tell me a little bit about what you mentioned before about your area, sort of
[00:27:11] sharing some sort of, um, soulful connection to, to friuli, Vanessa, Julie.
[00:27:17] I'm really curious to hear about that.
[00:27:20] Yeah.
[00:27:20] Bear in mind, I've only been to friuli a few times in the last time I was there, it was
[00:27:24] many, many years ago.
[00:27:26] But one of the things that strikes me about friuli is the independence and the independent
[00:27:33] mindedness of the people who live there and make wine in there.
[00:27:36] And the sort of wildness, it seems to be kind of a wild area, whatever that means.
[00:27:43] And it also seems to be kind of a border area, another or liminal.
[00:27:48] In other words, it's kind of on the edge of different things.
[00:27:52] Um, pull obviously politically on the edge, um, geologically geographically on the edge,
[00:27:58] but it just seems different.
[00:27:59] It just seems unlike other, any other place in Italy.
[00:28:04] It doesn't even seem like a part of Italy at times.
[00:28:07] And, um, San Juan is kind of the same thing.
[00:28:10] It's kind of its own unique thing.
[00:28:13] There's sort of nothing like it.
[00:28:14] And it's kind of, as I mentioned, it's kind of on the edge of, it borders four different
[00:28:19] counties.
[00:28:20] It's on the edge, um, geologically, geothermically.
[00:28:25] Um, you know, as I said, it's right on the, uh,
[00:28:28] Earth's right on the San Andreas fault.
[00:28:32] And it just seems like a magical place where kind of almost anything can happen unexpectedly.
[00:28:38] So for those of us given to magical thinking, it's a, it's a perfect place to grow grapes.
[00:28:44] So what is your sort of, uh, what is your, your end goal there?
[00:28:48] I mean, I mentioned, I'm, I'm, I noticed something on, on the website when you were talking about
[00:28:53] sort of trying to create a uniquely terroir driven wine.
[00:28:59] Can you tell me a little bit more about that sort of vision?
[00:29:03] Yeah.
[00:29:04] In other words, I kind of think of terroir as sort of the complexing element or the soil
[00:29:09] characteristics as the complexing element in wine.
[00:29:13] You know, I don't really want to make a strictly speaking, varietally pure wine because in that,
[00:29:20] in a sense that actually defeats the purpose.
[00:29:22] I want to sort of tamp down the expression of varietal characteristics to allow a greater
[00:29:30] expression or more articulate expression of soil characteristics.
[00:29:33] So I'm, I'm kind of thinking that by planting a multiple genetically diverse population, that
[00:29:40] will be a good strategy for allowing the emergence of soil characteristics.
[00:29:44] And then in the farming practice, you know, everything we can do to nourish the soil microflora,
[00:29:50] um, and have, you know, sort of most benign conditions for, um, formation of, um, symbiotic,
[00:29:58] uh, micro, uh, microflora, microflora, all to the good.
[00:30:03] Are you, uh, biodynamic?
[00:30:05] We have used biodynamic preps in the past at the moment.
[00:30:10] We're not certified, but we are, and we're not certain, nor are we certified organic,
[00:30:14] but we do adhere to organic practice.
[00:30:17] So no fungicides, et cetera.
[00:30:19] Okay.
[00:30:20] It reminds me a little bit, your, your idea there reminds me a little bit of Marcel Dice.
[00:30:25] I don't know if you've ever gone to see him or if you spent some time in Alsace.
[00:30:29] The Dice Man.
[00:30:31] Yes.
[00:30:31] The Dice Man.
[00:30:32] And he's, he's very into that whole idea of, um, you harvest the site and not the grape variety.
[00:30:40] Correct.
[00:30:41] You know, he's an inspiration.
[00:30:42] Um, I mean, we don't do as radical root is like root pruning that he does.
[00:30:49] I mean, he does, he's, he's very radical as far as trying to enhance expression of soil
[00:30:54] characteristics, but we, we take it.
[00:30:56] We take inspiration from it, from his work.
[00:30:58] Okay.
[00:30:59] Yeah.
[00:30:59] Reminded me very much of him.
[00:31:02] So you said you haven't been here in a long time.
[00:31:05] When was the last time that you were here in Friuli?
[00:31:09] Probably 25 years ago.
[00:31:11] No.
[00:31:13] Yeah.
[00:31:13] It's been, it's been a long time.
[00:31:15] Well, you're going to have to come back.
[00:31:17] No kidding.
[00:31:18] Yes.
[00:31:19] Um, it would be great to have you and see you here in Friuli.
[00:31:22] Do you, do you remember your first time in Friuli?
[00:31:26] When was that?
[00:31:28] That had to have been almost 35 years ago, um, visiting the Dorigos.
[00:31:34] And, um, I met, remember meeting Girolamo who was, had the habit of dressing in army
[00:31:41] fatigues and driving a Jeep.
[00:31:43] And I, I had the sensation that he regarded the wine business as a type of war, um, to be
[00:31:50] waged.
[00:31:52] Colonel vigilance was necessary.
[00:31:55] You know, it was a campaign.
[00:31:56] It was a military campaign.
[00:31:59] It was pretty, I thought it was pretty funny.
[00:32:01] Was there, I mean, other than the way he dressed, was there something about his demeanor, about
[00:32:06] his character that you, that you got that idea from as well?
[00:32:09] Again, I think it was the military fatigues and the cigar kind of vaguely reminiscent of
[00:32:14] Fidel Castro.
[00:32:18] Very.
[00:32:18] So the whole like, like, an agrafia was pretty, was pretty consistent.
[00:32:22] And it, was there a specific reason why you came to see Dorigo here in Friuli?
[00:32:29] Well, the individual who arranged the visit, uh, Gerald Weissel was, was a friend of the
[00:32:35] Dorigos.
[00:32:35] So I was trading on his, their, his relationship with them.
[00:32:39] And so he made the introduction.
[00:32:41] We obviously hit it off pretty, pretty, pretty nicely.
[00:32:44] And I've, I've run into Alessio since then at wine fairs and other, other places, but it's
[00:32:50] been, it's been a while since I've been back to Friuli.
[00:32:54] Do you remember your first Friulian wine?
[00:32:58] You know, frankly, it had to have been a Dorigo wine and it was probably the, strangely
[00:33:03] enough, their Cabernet.
[00:33:05] Um, they did, they did it.
[00:33:06] I don't know if they still do it.
[00:33:07] Uh, I forget what it's called.
[00:33:09] Yeah.
[00:33:09] It was a kind of a Bordeaux, a Bordeaux blend.
[00:33:12] Um, and I, but I, I was remember being most impressed by the Pignolo.
[00:33:18] Oh, that knocked me out.
[00:33:19] And then actually in subsequent vintages, um, their Verduzzo and their, their Picolit has
[00:33:25] knocked me out completely.
[00:33:26] Exactly.
[00:33:28] So, um, it was kind of like Pignolo and this is, you're really a big sort of, uh, a big
[00:33:36] proponent of the, the local grape varieties here and things like that.
[00:33:41] So Pignolo was sort of your, your, your main drive.
[00:33:45] So when did you get the idea to sort of start bringing these grape varieties back to California?
[00:33:50] Yeah.
[00:33:53] Well, immediately I didn't have a very well formed idea of what to do with them in California,
[00:33:59] but I just thought, you know, I really need to have these kind of in the, in the library,
[00:34:03] you know, I'll figure out later what to do with them at some point.
[00:34:07] Okay.
[00:34:08] And, and so I know you've, you've also, you've also talked about Ronchi di Chala and you've
[00:34:14] talked about Chala Bianco.
[00:34:15] So, so was that your first introduction to Scopatino or were there other wineries that
[00:34:21] you spoke about, uh, Scopatino with?
[00:34:23] I have had other Scopatinos, but honestly Ronchi di Chala is far and away the most interesting
[00:34:30] expression of Scopatino that I've run across and especially the older, older vintages, which
[00:34:35] are extraordinary.
[00:34:37] As I've mentioned, I'm a Rotundone freak and I love Syrah when it comes from Cote Roté and
[00:34:44] I love the pepperiness of Scopatino.
[00:34:47] It's a funny looking, it's a funny looking grape.
[00:34:50] That's for sure.
[00:34:50] Uh, the cluster is very, very long.
[00:34:54] A lot of people cut the tails off, don't they?
[00:34:58] I, I think I, I need to get into the habit of doing that as well.
[00:35:01] We, we, we don't, we only have a few vines of Scopatino like a dozen, but, um, I'm hoping
[00:35:07] to make, maybe plant a few more and do a little micro vinification, uh, to see what
[00:35:11] I can do.
[00:35:12] But the flavor of the grapes is amazing.
[00:35:14] But I, I think you're, you're right.
[00:35:15] You want to cut off the bottom third of the grape and maybe the wings as well, or at least
[00:35:20] the bottom third.
[00:35:21] Cause it's a very slim, it's a cylindrically shaped cluster and it's ginormous.
[00:35:27] It can get very, very big.
[00:35:29] Yeah.
[00:35:29] Yeah.
[00:35:30] I know that there are some producers.
[00:35:32] I know that Ronchi di Chala does not do that, but they definitely do that cutting off
[00:35:38] the, the, the point of the, the, the bunch and the, the two wings to sort of really get
[00:35:43] that heart as, as, uh, as ripe as possible.
[00:35:47] Is that sort of, um, intense ripeness really important for Scopatino?
[00:35:51] Frankly, I would be just speaking out of turn, but I'm sure that's the case.
[00:35:57] Again, big clusters take more time to ripen and you lose acidity.
[00:36:02] I think you want to kind of bring it in for a safe landing within a certain timeframe.
[00:36:07] So thinning, even though it's a manipulation is probably something that Scopatino needs most
[00:36:14] years.
[00:36:15] Yeah.
[00:36:16] Are you talking about in general or just in California?
[00:36:19] Yeah.
[00:36:20] In general, you know, I can't, I can't speak for free, but at least in my opinion, I think
[00:36:26] it needs to be sinned.
[00:36:28] Um, again, virus-free, virus-free vines are often wonderful, but they often produce way
[00:36:36] more crops and, uh, is a optimal.
[00:36:40] So often virus-free vines need super, super thinning for their optimal expression.
[00:36:47] Virus-free vines in general, not just Scopatino, just to be, just to be clear.
[00:36:52] Correct.
[00:36:53] Exactly.
[00:36:53] Yes.
[00:36:54] Okay.
[00:36:54] So, I mean, this is sort of off the track here, but, um, you've mentioned sort of virus-free
[00:37:00] vines on a number of occasions.
[00:37:01] Is this something that, I mean, if you're talking about a grape variety like Ribola Jala or like
[00:37:09] Scopatino that tends to be very productive, um, is that something, this is sort of viral
[00:37:15] element.
[00:37:16] Is this something that's almost kind of necessary in the, the, in keeping the vigor down on the
[00:37:23] grapes or, uh, is, is really what you're looking for in all cases, vines that are virus-free?
[00:37:33] Well, you know, again, they would murder me at UC Davis for saying this, but I, I think
[00:37:38] you're, you're right.
[00:37:39] I think virus-free comes with, at a price and, and I can, sometimes it's counterintuitive,
[00:37:45] but I think sometimes virus vines will produce more interesting grapes than virus-free vines.
[00:37:50] Um, there's a price for it, of course, like short, short, short, shortened lifespan of
[00:37:57] wine.
[00:37:57] But I, I think the quest for this mythical virus-free status, um, doesn't always redound to, uh, better
[00:38:06] wine quality.
[00:38:07] Alas, wish life were simpler.
[00:38:12] Nothing is, you know, nothing is, is clear cut in the world of wine.
[00:38:15] I mean, and obviously I do not have the type of depth of knowledge and experience as far
[00:38:21] as, uh, you know, wine making and, and vineyard practices are concerned.
[00:38:25] But when I do teach my wine classes, the first thing that I always teach the folks who
[00:38:31] come in and taste with me is there are no right answers in wine.
[00:38:36] The answer to every question in wine is it depends.
[00:38:39] So yeah, it is quite complicated.
[00:38:41] Yep.
[00:38:42] I agree.
[00:38:43] Are there some other, um, for you, Liam producers who you're, uh, who you really, really like?
[00:38:48] We've mentioned Dorigo.
[00:38:50] We rent, we've mentioned Chala.
[00:38:51] Are there any other ones that are sort of, uh, on your, on your list, big or small?
[00:38:57] Well, unfortunately I really like Brisson.
[00:39:00] Uh, I'm not a big fan of his politics, but, um, his wines are, are unfortunately really
[00:39:06] good.
[00:39:07] Um, I like Venica quite a bit, uh, Ronco del Nemets quite a bit.
[00:39:12] Um, Bia de Ramon's as well.
[00:39:17] Um, and then of course the, the orange contingent, Gravner, I like, uh, Radicon as well.
[00:39:24] Uh, okay.
[00:39:24] So that, that whole, um, Slavia troop up there who I think are, are, are really, really, uh,
[00:39:32] interesting in the sense that they have turned a very tiny area with only more or less seven
[00:39:40] producers who are doing a very specific type of wine into a global destination for, for
[00:39:48] wine.
[00:39:49] Yeah.
[00:39:49] And I think that's a, that's a model for a place like say, Prepolto.
[00:39:53] I think that type of concentration on place and a specific product is, uh, really important
[00:40:03] to the future of, of Friulian wine.
[00:40:06] Yep.
[00:40:08] Agreed.
[00:40:09] Are there any Friulian wines that you haven't tried that you, you've wanted to try?
[00:40:16] Uh, I don't think so.
[00:40:18] I just want to broaden.
[00:40:19] I want to taste as many Pignolos and more Skiopitinos as I possibly can just to, just
[00:40:25] to understand the possibility of the grape.
[00:40:27] So there's a whole world out there.
[00:40:30] Um, it's very hard.
[00:40:31] Pignolo is not the easiest wine to find in, in Calico or in the, in the U S. Um, not that
[00:40:37] much seems to be exported, but I'm, I'm trying to broaden my experience with that for sure.
[00:40:45] Do we, do we make too many different kinds of wines in Friuli in your opinion?
[00:40:50] I don't know.
[00:40:52] Hardly.
[00:40:52] Really?
[00:40:53] Maybe not in your, I don't think so.
[00:40:55] I mean, this is coming from a eclectic human, human being.
[00:40:59] I don't think so.
[00:41:01] I mean, maybe for, maybe you don't need to sell every single wine in every market, but
[00:41:06] I mean, if the wine is interesting and a useful expression of the variety, why not?
[00:41:12] I mean, I guess that ultimately at the end of the day, if the winery can't sell all the,
[00:41:17] all the wines it makes, it's probably making too many wines.
[00:41:19] But, um, winemakers also have to stay interested in engaged.
[00:41:24] And some, some winemakers are more engaged by having more variety and others just like
[00:41:30] life a little bit simpler.
[00:41:31] So you have to do what works for yourself.
[00:41:34] Yeah.
[00:41:35] There seems to be sort of two different arguments in Friuli when we talk about, because, you
[00:41:41] know, we could do better on the international sort of market and the international scale.
[00:41:45] I mean, you said it wasn't difficult to try to find Pignolo.
[00:41:49] I'm sure it's also difficult to find Ribola, Gialla and Friulano in California, but there's
[00:41:54] sort of two schools and there's the one school that says we need to keep and promote and sell
[00:42:00] and continue to make all of these different varieties simply because they're actually quite
[00:42:06] good.
[00:42:07] Um, and then there's another side that says there's too many different types of wine.
[00:42:13] And Friuli doesn't have sort of a focused image in the international market.
[00:42:18] Do you think that there's any merit to either one of those arguments?
[00:42:23] There's merits both arguments.
[00:42:25] I'm find myself more inclined to favor the first argument than the second, but, you know,
[00:42:31] certainly then there's less of a need for international varieties.
[00:42:37] I just don't know that, you know, having said that, Friuli makes very nice Sauvignon, extremely
[00:42:44] nice Sauvignon.
[00:42:45] But I would stay away from international varieties.
[00:42:48] I think that's, and we're actually pretty good Merlot as well.
[00:42:51] Um, but I think the indigenous grapes are the ones that we obviously need to be focused
[00:42:55] on.
[00:42:56] So I guess if some of the things to be sort of, you know, if you were going to, if you were
[00:43:03] the one who was sort of saying, what, what should you leave behind?
[00:43:05] It would be sort of, uh, the Cabernet Sauvignons, the Cabernet Francs, the Chardonnays, things
[00:43:11] like that.
[00:43:12] You'll find all over and concentrate on native grape varieties and some of those international
[00:43:18] varieties that tend to do really well here.
[00:43:20] I always say, yes, there are great Merlot in, in, uh, in Collio.
[00:43:25] Um, there are great Sauvignon Blancs all over Friuli.
[00:43:28] Um, so yeah, I don't see any reason why we should eliminate those, but we should, I think,
[00:43:33] pay a little bit more attention to, uh, local grape varieties.
[00:43:37] I think that's happening.
[00:43:38] Good.
[00:43:39] As it should be.
[00:43:40] Are there any winemakers in California that have a Friuli in background?
[00:43:44] Are there any like people from Friuli that make wine in, in California?
[00:43:51] There, there must be, but I don't know.
[00:43:53] You don't know.
[00:43:53] They might be, I know, I know there's people who love Friuli grapes like Steven
[00:43:58] Thias and, um, and the late George Vier.
[00:44:03] But, um, honestly, I don't know anyone offhand.
[00:44:06] And your, your other winery or your other project, the language of yes, is that somehow
[00:44:12] connected with Popolo Shum?
[00:44:15] Kind of not quite at the hip, tangentially connected.
[00:44:20] I mean, I'm trying to apply some of the lessons I learned in Popolo Shum to the work at Language
[00:44:25] of Yes.
[00:44:26] The language of yes is, is more, not surprisingly more conservative, um, kind of staying within
[00:44:32] the bounds of, um, Rhone and Southern France.
[00:44:35] Having said that, Language of Yes is the first winery in California that I know that actually
[00:44:43] released a, uh, Tiburin.
[00:44:46] And we're planting more Tiburin.
[00:44:49] Um, somehow I've persuaded the folks at Gallo that Tiburin is the answer.
[00:44:53] Um, I've persuaded myself that Tiburin is, is the answer for California for, uh, in other
[00:44:59] words, how do you make a elegant wine in a warm, dry climate, uh, such as we find in
[00:45:05] California.
[00:45:06] So I think Tiburin has great potential.
[00:45:10] Well, and that's one of the things that's happening with Language of Yes.
[00:45:13] It's interesting because when I, when I saw, you know, obviously I follow you on, on,
[00:45:18] on the social media and when I saw the Language of Yes, the first person who I thought of was
[00:45:24] Ben Little.
[00:45:24] It sounds so much like the name, what Ben Little would give to a winery.
[00:45:31] Uh, well, I mean, I think his whole book on Pignolo is, is basically the Language of Yes.
[00:45:38] I mean, I think Pignolo is the grape of yes.
[00:45:41] I mean, there's just something, everything about the book, about the grape is affirmative.
[00:45:48] Tell me more about that.
[00:45:49] That's very interesting.
[00:45:51] I mean, again, without being too mystical or too new agey about it.
[00:45:54] I have this idea that wines can possess a sort of life force and you can be sort of as mystical
[00:46:01] about that idea as you, as you want to be.
[00:46:03] But in fact, what it is, is its ability to age and live over a long period of time.
[00:46:08] And, and I, Pignolo has that sort of life, liveliness,
[00:46:16] Elan Vital life force to it that I think is really, really special.
[00:46:22] And, um, those are the kinds of wines that, again, you can't say this on a, on a wine label, but it's the kind of wines that inspire us and, um, sort of energize us and enliven us.
[00:46:39] Again, you can't say that, but, um, I think it's true.
[00:46:42] Certain wines really kind of improve the quality of your life.
[00:46:46] And that's, those are the kinds of wines I'm interested in.
[00:46:49] So you're literally, cause when I, when, when you first started saying that, I was thinking more along the lines of, you know, that enliven us from an enological point of view, but you're literally talking about the consumption of this wine enlivens us.
[00:47:06] Correct.
[00:47:07] Exactly.
[00:47:07] Yes.
[00:47:08] Okay.
[00:47:09] Yes.
[00:47:10] The language of yes.
[00:47:11] I would love to get you and Ben in a room together and just sort of bottle of Pinolo on the table.
[00:47:19] I'll just shut up and listen to you guys talk.
[00:47:22] Cause I think that would be an amazing conversation.
[00:47:25] Well, it will happen one of these days for sure.
[00:47:28] Um, hopefully after I've got her at some point when I have some products, some, some Pinolo to show or, you know, some of these oddball Pinolo seedlings.
[00:47:39] And I'm obviously very curious to see how much variability there is in the seedlings, whether any of them taste at all like, like a Pinolo or, or not.
[00:47:49] Um, actually the, the oddball, the odd outliers are the ones that are possibly the most interesting.
[00:47:57] Um, so we'll, we'll see that that's good few years away yet.
[00:48:01] Yeah.
[00:48:01] I was going to ask how long are we going to have to wait for them?
[00:48:04] Well, the seeds just, they just came in a few months ago and they're, they're just coming out of the refrigerator, um, in the next couple of weeks.
[00:48:13] And they're going to be germinated at the nursery.
[00:48:16] So it's going to be a few years yet.
[00:48:18] Alas.
[00:48:19] Oh, okay.
[00:48:20] That's, um, I'm, I don't know if I have that kind of patience, Randall.
[00:48:25] Well, you don't have any choice.
[00:48:27] Exactly.
[00:48:27] Keep your, keep your pants on.
[00:48:30] Uh, well, I will try.
[00:48:33] I will try.
[00:48:33] Well, uh, yeah, let's hope that the, the conversation continues in the conversation between you and Ben, which I hope to be a part of, or at least be witness to happens before the wines, uh, the, before the Pinolo is, is ready to go.
[00:48:49] Any old time.
[00:48:50] Next time in Friulay for sure.
[00:48:52] Well, I hope you, I hope you come.
[00:48:54] I hope 2023 is, is the year that you get out here.
[00:48:57] That would be wonderful.
[00:48:58] And I would, I would love it if you could, you know, stop in and, uh, have another little chat here at, uh, at Lata Verda.
[00:49:05] Before we go, and I know you, we have plenty of things to do.
[00:49:08] You're just starting off your day in California.
[00:49:11] I believe the one thing that I was really curious about, cause I remember this when I was still working in New York City many years ago.
[00:49:17] Was it not you who staged that, uh, the funeral for corks, um, in New York City?
[00:49:25] Was it you who put like that?
[00:49:26] There was like a, a coffin in Grand Central Station where people would throw corks into.
[00:49:31] Was that you?
[00:49:33] Indeed it was.
[00:49:34] Yes.
[00:49:34] The funeral for Mr. Thierry Bouchon.
[00:49:39] Do you still believe that, that, that screw caps are the future?
[00:49:42] Do you still think that cork is on the way out?
[00:49:46] Well, you know, it's interesting.
[00:49:48] I love the aesthetic of cork.
[00:49:50] I love the tradition of cork, but frankly, screw caps, I think by far are the superior closure relative to cork.
[00:49:59] So, um, I'm, I'm still a true believer in screw caps.
[00:50:03] Um, I'm hoping that I will accomplish more in life than just being a great popularizer of screw caps, but I, I believe in them.
[00:50:10] I think they're, I think they're great.
[00:50:12] Well, I'm sure you, your legacy will not just be promoting screw caps.
[00:50:16] I am sure.
[00:50:17] Let's hope, let us hope.
[00:50:19] Yeah.
[00:50:20] That's a great.
[00:50:21] So you, even for something like older, you know, wines, like a Pignolo, you would, uh, prefer to have that age under a screw cap rather than a, than a traditional cork.
[00:50:32] Yeah.
[00:50:34] It's a misconception that wines don't age under screw cap.
[00:50:37] They actually live longer under screw cap relative to corks.
[00:50:42] They, their, their maturation is a little different than, than that of a cork closure.
[00:50:47] It's a slower evolution and tends to be more backward at the beginning, but it will go.
[00:50:53] I reckon 50%, the wines will live 50% longer in screw cap compared to cork, which is non-trivial.
[00:51:01] Wow.
[00:51:02] Okay.
[00:51:02] That's fantastic.
[00:51:03] Uh, cause I, I remember having conversations about whether or not wine aging in the bottle is an aerobic or an anaerobic process and how, how much transpiration of oxygen is there through, um, a cork with a wax seal, which is basically how every vintage port is closed.
[00:51:22] Um, yet those wines develop for decades and decades.
[00:51:26] So, you know, is that sort of narrative of, you must have oxygen transpiration for a wine to age?
[00:51:34] Is that just not true?
[00:51:36] It's not true.
[00:51:38] Yeah.
[00:51:39] The development of bottle bouquet and complexity is a totally anaerobic process does not require oxygen.
[00:51:45] And, uh, uh, a, a dense cork with a, with wax seal on top of it is pretty much what you get with, um, screwdriver cap.
[00:51:55] So the amount of oxygen ingress is, is pretty darn minimal.
[00:52:00] Um, not necessarily for the aging process.
[00:52:04] Well, that is, that is, is what I've been sort of saying for many years and I am honored to have you sort of vindicate me, um, regarding that, that technical piece of information there.
[00:52:18] Randall, I am going to let you go.
[00:52:20] I really, really appreciate the time that you've spent with me here today.
[00:52:24] My pleasure.
[00:52:25] And, um, I hope to see you in for you as soon as possible.
[00:52:29] Sounds, sounds great.
[00:52:31] All right.
[00:52:31] Thanks again, Randall.
[00:52:33] My pleasure, man.
[00:52:34] Take care of Wayne.
[00:52:35] You too.
[00:52:36] Cheers.
[00:52:37] Bye.
[00:52:38] Bye.