Second part of this conversation. Daniele Lenuzza, a third generation winemaker from Prepotto (home of Schioppettino di Prepotto) and his wife Tanika Paris run the family winery with an eye towards sustainability, interpersonal relations and an optimal work-life balance... all while making great wines that express the character of Prepotto and native grape varieties.
[00:00:19] Welcome to La Taverna Friuli Wines, the definitive podcast on wines from Friuli Venezia
[00:00:27] Giulia. I'm your host, Wayne Young.
[00:00:39] Hello, Friuli Wine friends. Welcome back to La Taverna. I am Wayne Young, your host. How's
[00:00:47] everybody doing this week? Got the second part of this conversation with Daniele Lenuzza
[00:00:53] and his wife Tanika Paris. Daniele is 30 years old, third generation winemaker in Pripolto,
[00:01:01] home of Scipitino. Met his lovely wife Tanika Paris from Stellenbosch in South Africa while
[00:01:07] he was traveling internationally for his winery. They have two kids. And this episode we talk
[00:01:15] a bunch about social media and about wine tasting and building relationships with your commercial
[00:01:22] partners and with your friends and people who come to the winery. Talk about sustainability.
[00:01:27] It's a great conversation. Great future people, as my friend Ben calls them. So without further
[00:01:33] ado, let's get into this second part of the conversation with Daniele Lenuzza and Tanika Paris.
[00:01:51] You said you sort of started at 15,000 bottles and your target is around 90,000 bottles. Where
[00:01:57] are you at right now?
[00:01:59] 80% of the growth.
[00:02:01] 80% of the growth. So you guys have really accelerated. You guys have put your foot on the
[00:02:04] pedal. That's great.
[00:02:06] Yeah.
[00:02:07] And you travel almost exclusively as a couple. So you present yourselves.
[00:02:12] We're trying to, but...
[00:02:13] Yes, I know.
[00:02:14] So you have two kids. So somebody has to stay home.
[00:02:17] Someone has to stay home.
[00:02:17] Mom or dad has to stay home to take care of the kids.
[00:02:20] We try it.
[00:02:21] How old are your children?
[00:02:22] So we, our daughter next month is turning five.
[00:02:25] Okay.
[00:02:26] And our son is 10 months old.
[00:02:27] 10 months old. Okay.
[00:02:29] So, you know, for us travel and meet people, go to our, all our importers, all our clients,
[00:02:35] our friends.
[00:02:35] The dog needs the most attention.
[00:02:38] Everyone came.
[00:02:39] Should've got a cat.
[00:02:40] Came to visit in our winery and we have dinner at our home.
[00:02:44] So like we, we try to create friendship first.
[00:02:48] Right.
[00:02:48] And then the business come automatically, you know, that's, we don't want just to say
[00:02:53] we don't want just a deal.
[00:02:55] We want a long-term cooperation with our importers.
[00:02:59] And lately, like so long, we are, we are really doing that.
[00:03:03] So you have a, you mentioned, you know, Austria, Germany, North Europe.
[00:03:09] We talked about that, but also, I mean, you said you had a bunch of markets around the world.
[00:03:13] Our biggest market at the moment or at the moment for the last four or five years is Japan.
[00:03:18] Japan.
[00:03:18] Japan.
[00:03:19] Okay.
[00:03:20] Canada.
[00:03:20] Canada is really growing.
[00:03:22] Switzerland is growing a lot.
[00:03:23] Canada is a typical market too, because it's still, it's still state controlled.
[00:03:27] Is it not?
[00:03:28] Yeah.
[00:03:28] We are.
[00:03:29] I think we are.
[00:03:29] How did you crack that code?
[00:03:32] Yeah.
[00:03:32] You know, you need to push some, sometimes, you know.
[00:03:34] Yeah.
[00:03:35] And we have the first cup of tea and the propoto in the monopole of, of Quebec.
[00:03:40] Hmm.
[00:03:40] So.
[00:03:41] Really?
[00:03:41] Yeah.
[00:03:42] And it's.
[00:03:42] So in any wine shop of Quebec, Montreal, whatever, like you find our cup of tea and
[00:03:47] they can't get enough.
[00:03:49] Yes.
[00:03:49] They can't get enough.
[00:03:50] Wow.
[00:03:51] So.
[00:03:51] They're trying to allocate even more every year.
[00:03:54] Really?
[00:03:55] US is quite also a good market, North and South Carolina.
[00:03:57] We have very great ambassadors of Friuli wines there.
[00:04:00] In South Carolina.
[00:04:01] North and South Carolina.
[00:04:03] North and South Carolina.
[00:04:03] Really?
[00:04:03] Yes.
[00:04:04] North and South Carolina.
[00:04:05] Yes.
[00:04:06] Yeah.
[00:04:06] That's, that's our, our biggest market.
[00:04:08] And then we have also small markets, but you know, we don't differentiate.
[00:04:12] What's it like trying to, to educate somebody from North or South Carolina about Scipitino?
[00:04:18] What's that, what's that experience like?
[00:04:20] So I've been there for 10 days now in May?
[00:04:24] Yeah.
[00:04:25] In May.
[00:04:25] And the culture and the knowledge that they have about wine, it's unbelievable.
[00:04:31] Really?
[00:04:31] The wine list that they have, they know where Friuli is.
[00:04:35] They know where Friuli is.
[00:04:37] They mostly know where Friuli is.
[00:04:39] People from Bologna don't know where Friuli is.
[00:04:42] Yeah.
[00:04:42] That's unbelievable.
[00:04:42] That's why it's unbelievable.
[00:04:44] Yeah.
[00:04:45] That's fantastic.
[00:04:45] And then when they taste Scipitino di Propota made it in the way that we made, they
[00:04:53] were changed.
[00:04:54] Because it's a wine that's very, it's a big wine.
[00:04:58] Yeah.
[00:04:58] Okay.
[00:04:58] Scipitino is not that easy.
[00:05:00] It is easy drinking, but on the market for its price and whatever, it's not an everyday
[00:05:05] wine.
[00:05:06] But they say, I want this wine.
[00:05:07] I want to put it by glass.
[00:05:09] Because it's so easy drinking and people need to enjoy it every day.
[00:05:15] Right.
[00:05:15] And that's what we're trying to do, to put our wine by the glass.
[00:05:19] It can be very expensive, but in the right markets is the way to promote Friuli.
[00:05:25] Of course.
[00:05:26] Because if you see Friuli on the wine list, no one get it.
[00:05:29] But if you see it on the blackboard on the wall, say, why not?
[00:05:34] Yeah.
[00:05:34] You're going to try a glass.
[00:05:35] Give it a try.
[00:05:36] But then when they try Scipitino, they can't have enough.
[00:05:40] Really?
[00:05:41] Yeah.
[00:05:41] I used to do that when I was a sommelier with Friuli ono, with Tokai.
[00:05:45] Yeah.
[00:05:45] Just taste as many as you can.
[00:05:47] Well, I used to give it to clients, right?
[00:05:49] People would, because everybody orders Pinot Grigio in the United States.
[00:05:52] Yeah.
[00:05:52] In an Italian restaurant, your white wine is Pinot Grigio.
[00:05:55] And I was like, hang on a second.
[00:05:57] So I'd try this and they would do a try when it was back when it was called Tokai.
[00:06:02] And they were like, oh my God, this is the best Pinot Grigio I've ever had.
[00:06:05] And I was like, yeah, because it's not Pinot Grigio.
[00:06:07] And then you get to tell the whole story.
[00:06:10] And that's so important because that gets passed around.
[00:06:13] People all of a sudden they feel enlightened and they take that information and they go,
[00:06:19] the next time they go to another restaurant.
[00:06:21] Knowledge is power.
[00:06:22] Knowledge is power.
[00:06:23] And they go, excuse me, do you have a Tokai Friulano?
[00:06:26] And then their friends look at them like, I thought you drank Pinot Grigio.
[00:06:29] What is this Tokai stuff?
[00:06:30] Isn't that sweet wine?
[00:06:31] It's like, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:06:32] And then all of a sudden they feel like a little bit more intelligent than their friends
[00:06:35] and their friends start to say, oh, okay, well, let me try some too.
[00:06:37] And all of a sudden you're an automatic ambassador, you know?
[00:06:41] So that's really super important.
[00:06:43] So, I mean, you were talking about communication, right?
[00:06:46] So you were like, okay, so communication, you got your personal visits into markets, right?
[00:06:51] You have the degusteria, which is people are coming to you.
[00:06:54] Yes.
[00:06:55] Mostly foreigners or also local people as well?
[00:06:58] Also locals.
[00:06:59] Yeah?
[00:06:59] Also locals.
[00:07:00] We try to do both.
[00:07:01] What are the other sort of channels of communication that you guys are using?
[00:07:06] Social media or video or what you guys are working with?
[00:07:09] Social media, for sure.
[00:07:10] Yeah.
[00:07:11] I think our social media are more our diary of the limits of family, what they do, what
[00:07:17] our daughter do, what our dog does today.
[00:07:20] We're not a very obvious kind of social media page.
[00:07:25] You know, one that's really pushing to communicate a specific thing.
[00:07:29] About wine.
[00:07:30] Yes.
[00:07:30] We're very transparent, which is how we are in our normal life or with all our clients.
[00:07:37] We try to exactly create more of a diary into our real everyday happenings that you can kind
[00:07:44] of follow along with instead of just keep selling you one specific thing.
[00:07:49] Right, right.
[00:07:49] Because then at the end of the day, we're not communicating anything.
[00:07:52] It's just becoming very one dimensional.
[00:07:54] Right.
[00:07:54] Whereas what we try to communicate on social media is more interactive.
[00:07:59] Okay.
[00:07:59] Yeah.
[00:08:00] And who handles that?
[00:08:02] Is that, is that your, is that your deal?
[00:08:04] I'm really intimately involved in that process and I'm not trying to steal anything from you.
[00:08:09] Everybody has their own style, but what's your creative process of sort of creating your
[00:08:15] social media communication?
[00:08:17] So do you just like wake up in the morning and go, Oh wait, look there, the dog is,
[00:08:22] I think it's very spontaneous.
[00:08:23] It's very spontaneous.
[00:08:25] Isn't that the way it should be?
[00:08:27] Yeah.
[00:08:27] I'm not, I'm no expert in social media.
[00:08:30] I love social media and I love its power that it has.
[00:08:34] But again, we try and use it in a very natural, spontaneous way that doesn't seem forced.
[00:08:41] Right.
[00:08:42] So it really is spontaneous and it's basically having your phone with you.
[00:08:47] And because everything that happens in the day is based on us and our family life.
[00:08:53] So it's, it's pretty simple just to say what is happening.
[00:08:58] Right.
[00:08:58] You know, that is the strategy and maybe you can't even call it a strategy.
[00:09:01] Well, I, it's, it definitely is a strategy, but obviously it's, it's a very organic way of doing.
[00:09:07] And we've, we've, we've found, we've found a great, a great response to this kind of style of social media because, um, a lot of people are finding social media to be very forced and very in their face.
[00:09:22] Um, more of the time goes on.
[00:09:24] A little bit too preachy, a little bit too, like traditional marketing, you know, like, yeah, it's, it's, it's moving in that direction and can, can sometimes be so in your face that, that, um, you don't know actually whether to turn or even if you want to look on social media anymore.
[00:09:39] Whereas social media, I think was more of a, um, a platform to get into, to the more particulars of, or the, of, of people's lives and, and business aspects, you know, the behind the scenes kind of, um, aspects.
[00:09:53] So we, we, we follow it in that way.
[00:09:55] Okay.
[00:09:56] Yeah.
[00:09:56] Smart.
[00:09:56] Smart.
[00:09:56] And I would say one of our best marketing campaigns is the, like when people talk about, like when people talk about that, that you tell your friends because you had a best experience and, and people just coming, coming, coming, coming.
[00:10:12] Same with importers.
[00:10:13] Right.
[00:10:14] And that's the best way, you know.
[00:10:15] Do you think it's important?
[00:10:17] I mean, I have my opinions about this.
[00:10:19] Do you think it's important to sort of develop a local market as well as your expert markets?
[00:10:24] Yes.
[00:10:25] Yeah.
[00:10:25] Absolutely.
[00:10:27] The local market is a very important part of communicating what we're doing.
[00:10:32] They are living this lifestyle every day.
[00:10:36] Right.
[00:10:36] And people want to get in touch with us.
[00:10:38] They want to partake and they want to interact with this kind of lifestyle.
[00:10:43] So it's very important.
[00:10:45] So that's why we have also offering food tasting, okay, where you taste five wines.
[00:10:51] Okay.
[00:10:52] But you can also taste by glass.
[00:10:56] Okay.
[00:10:56] So you have the glass and the purring.
[00:11:00] So if you try a regola gialla, it goes with this tortina or whatever.
[00:11:05] Right.
[00:11:05] So you can just have one tasting.
[00:11:07] Okay.
[00:11:08] So you can just taste one wine.
[00:11:09] You can just taste one wine, yes.
[00:11:11] You just pop in and taste the wine.
[00:11:12] Pop in, finish work, taste the wine.
[00:11:16] Again, wine is for everyone.
[00:11:17] Okay.
[00:11:18] And we're not the people that doesn't like local market.
[00:11:23] We really like it.
[00:11:25] Okay.
[00:11:25] Because we also really want to improve the culture of the drinking that people still do in Friuli.
[00:11:33] In Friuli.
[00:11:34] You know what I mean?
[00:11:34] Yeah.
[00:11:34] Yeah, yeah.
[00:11:35] It doesn't want to be a frasca.
[00:11:36] It doesn't want to be a place where people just hang around.
[00:11:40] Yeah.
[00:11:40] But 90 cent thimble fulls of local red wine.
[00:11:45] But that's why I spoke about the style of the place is to bring elegance back to wine.
[00:11:49] Right.
[00:11:50] Okay.
[00:11:50] Not the drinking side of wine, but the elegance, the tasting, the conversation side of wine.
[00:11:55] And that is a very big goal and aspect to this place.
[00:11:59] You guys are going to have like a line out the door.
[00:12:02] We hope.
[00:12:04] It's getting there.
[00:12:05] It's getting there.
[00:12:06] What is your opinion that you're saying you also have your opinion about?
[00:12:10] You know, I've spoken to sort of smaller wineries that have started up in Friuli.
[00:12:16] And it seems like the first thing that everybody starts talking about is like, well, we have
[00:12:22] to get like markets in the United States.
[00:12:24] We have to open up a market in Germany.
[00:12:26] We have to do this.
[00:12:27] And I'm like, what's your market like at home?
[00:12:30] And they're like, yeah, well, we, you know, we only do so much here at home, but we really
[00:12:34] want to develop the outside market.
[00:12:36] And I'm always like, stop.
[00:12:37] You have to work sort of in concentric circles.
[00:12:39] That's always been my idea.
[00:12:41] You work close to home.
[00:12:43] Right.
[00:12:44] And what happens is that that word of mouth, it spreads.
[00:12:48] Right.
[00:12:48] And then when somebody comes from Venice to Udine or Venice to Cividale, the word of mouth
[00:12:55] already in Cividale is saying, go there, go to Propolto.
[00:12:58] Oh.
[00:12:59] And then because people in Cividale know.
[00:13:00] Whereas if all of your energy is in New York, somebody who comes from New York to Cividale
[00:13:06] is going to go someplace else.
[00:13:07] They're not going to come and visit you because there's nobody in Cividale talking about you.
[00:13:11] You know?
[00:13:12] So you're, you're, you know, and you know, I talked to one winery like, oh yeah, we're going
[00:13:16] to go and do a, a, a, a wine fair in South Korea.
[00:13:20] I'm like, but you don't even sell your wines in Udine.
[00:13:23] Why are you going to South Korea?
[00:13:25] You know, I said, start, start selling your wines in Udine and they make very little wine,
[00:13:30] very, like very few bottles.
[00:13:32] I'm like, just concentrate here first.
[00:13:34] And you may not even have to go to South Korea.
[00:13:37] You might find that you just sold all of your wine in Udine and Pordenone, you know?
[00:13:43] So that's my, my concept is start close to home and then work your way out in sort of
[00:13:49] concentric circles.
[00:13:50] Is Friuli going really well?
[00:13:52] Go to Veneto, go to Austria, go to Emilio Romagna, go to Milano that needs that, you know,
[00:13:57] Friulian wine that doesn't have its own wine market.
[00:14:00] Verona is tough.
[00:14:02] Milano is easier.
[00:14:03] You're doing okay in Milano?
[00:14:04] Go to Rome, you know?
[00:14:06] Okay.
[00:14:07] So now you got, so you're working out in concentric circles.
[00:14:10] Of course, you can always do two things at one time.
[00:14:12] You can develop a foreign market while you're working on a local market as well.
[00:14:15] But I feel like sometimes people are outward looking and they're not looking closer to home.
[00:14:22] You had something to say.
[00:14:24] I'm laughing because I'm, I can tell my experience.
[00:14:30] So as I say before, when my father was running the winery, the most important, what was needed
[00:14:38] was the selling point.
[00:14:41] Okay.
[00:14:41] Sell more wine.
[00:14:42] Okay.
[00:14:42] It was not enough what we were doing.
[00:14:45] The selling point as in like a spa, un spacho in the winery for people to come to.
[00:14:50] No, no, no really.
[00:14:50] Because it changed a lot and so it was not a lot of background.
[00:14:53] So the main market was actually Trieste.
[00:14:56] Trieste.
[00:14:56] Okay.
[00:14:57] That's where my dad went in the 2000 to sell his bottles and he creates a very big market,
[00:15:04] you know?
[00:15:04] Okay.
[00:15:04] Then markets change.
[00:15:06] So you need to be on track, you know?
[00:15:10] Right.
[00:15:10] You have to stay on top of it.
[00:15:11] Yeah.
[00:15:12] I was at school and I had my license and 18 years old.
[00:15:17] Okay.
[00:15:18] You're driving license.
[00:15:19] Driving license.
[00:15:20] 16 December I was born.
[00:15:22] Okay.
[00:15:22] And then 31st January I had my license because I had already the 25, like whatever.
[00:15:28] So I got my license and the day after I didn't went to school, I went to sell wine.
[00:15:35] Really?
[00:15:36] Yeah.
[00:15:36] No one knows this story.
[00:15:37] Really?
[00:15:38] Like a lot of people, I can mention everyone.
[00:15:40] So the first four times I was so shy to go inside the place.
[00:15:46] Right.
[00:15:47] Because like, what the heck am I going to say?
[00:15:50] What am I going to do?
[00:15:50] Like, I don't have a maestro that teach me.
[00:15:53] I don't have like no one.
[00:15:54] So just go.
[00:15:56] Right.
[00:15:56] You need to sell wine.
[00:15:57] If you sell wine.
[00:15:58] Yeah.
[00:15:58] They're also not your wines.
[00:16:00] It's your dad's production.
[00:16:01] Yeah.
[00:16:01] My dad's labels.
[00:16:02] Exactly.
[00:16:04] And I did this in Friuli, Italy for many years.
[00:16:10] Really?
[00:16:10] Okay.
[00:16:11] So believe me, it's our job.
[00:16:14] It's definitely our job.
[00:16:16] Everyone goes to sell wine in Houdine.
[00:16:18] Everyone goes to sell wine in Porninone.
[00:16:21] Right.
[00:16:21] And this is a little bit, after almost 12 years, I can say it.
[00:16:28] Okay.
[00:16:29] The restaurant owners and the InnoTech owners are not helping the system.
[00:16:35] Okay.
[00:16:36] Okay.
[00:16:36] They use the producers a lot of times just for their benefits.
[00:16:41] Aha.
[00:16:42] So small wineries like ours are feeling very embarrassed and they push you down.
[00:16:50] They push you really down.
[00:16:52] Really?
[00:16:53] So that's why then, of course, you meet some reps and some distributors.
[00:16:57] So you create a little bit of your chain.
[00:16:59] Okay.
[00:16:59] Okay.
[00:17:00] So, and then that's why we focus on the international markets.
[00:17:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:17:06] Because if I come to you and you have a restaurant, you taste my wine and you love the wine, you buy it.
[00:17:12] Okay.
[00:17:13] That's it.
[00:17:14] Right.
[00:17:14] I can't come there six times.
[00:17:16] I can't come there every week and eat at your place and whatever.
[00:17:20] Uh-huh.
[00:17:20] And that's what everywhere else in the world, you go there, we taste in the wine, you buy the wine, you put by the glass and you make, you keep going.
[00:17:30] Okay.
[00:17:30] You know what I mean?
[00:17:31] Whereas here, it's a different expectation.
[00:17:33] You need to go every day, every day.
[00:17:35] And I'm tired of that.
[00:17:36] Okay.
[00:17:36] Okay.
[00:17:36] That's why we're not doing it anymore.
[00:17:38] Okay.
[00:17:40] But now we are realistically understand because we lost a little bit of the local market.
[00:17:47] Okay.
[00:17:48] Because we're not supporting the market.
[00:17:50] You know what I mean?
[00:17:50] But the market doesn't seem like it's supporting you either.
[00:17:53] Yeah.
[00:17:53] But now we want to go back, but we're going to go back in a different energy, with a different background.
[00:18:02] Like, not just please buy my wine.
[00:18:05] You know what I mean?
[00:18:05] Like the wine.
[00:18:06] Some thicker skin.
[00:18:07] Let's collaborate.
[00:18:09] Right.
[00:18:09] Let's do things.
[00:18:10] You know, but that, when you were saying like, oh, people like should start from local.
[00:18:15] Local is not easy.
[00:18:16] Sometimes easier to go sell wine in North Carolina.
[00:18:20] Right.
[00:18:20] You know what I mean?
[00:18:20] Or in South Korea, because if people like the wine, they buy the wine.
[00:18:24] You know what I mean?
[00:18:25] Here is a lot of wineries, a lot of friends.
[00:18:28] Wineries got friends.
[00:18:30] People like, it's wine for free.
[00:18:31] It's almost like they're spoiled for choice.
[00:18:33] Of course.
[00:18:34] Of course.
[00:18:34] You know, and so you're doing, like they're doing you a favor.
[00:18:39] By taking your wine.
[00:18:41] By taking, maybe taking your wine.
[00:18:42] Just by tasting it.
[00:18:43] I have lived that personally when I worked for Bastiana.
[00:18:47] Yes.
[00:18:47] I've lived that.
[00:18:48] Whereas, you know, obviously there are certain places in and around Udine that are important
[00:18:54] to get into.
[00:18:54] You want to be listed there.
[00:18:55] And you know that these people have a certain level of clientele who come in.
[00:18:58] And I remember, I remember going to these places and literally they made you feel like they
[00:19:05] were doing you the biggest favor.
[00:19:07] Yes.
[00:19:08] You know?
[00:19:09] And I remember even one place, I won't mention who it was.
[00:19:12] They were like, okay, we'll buy the wine per stanchezza.
[00:19:16] Yeah.
[00:19:17] For finimento.
[00:19:17] Exactly.
[00:19:18] Exactly.
[00:19:18] Because we had been and spoken to them and brought them bottles so many times.
[00:19:22] Okay.
[00:19:23] Facciamo per stanchezza.
[00:19:26] And I was like, you know, it was like, I said to the commercial director.
[00:19:29] It's very discouraging.
[00:19:29] I was like, you know what?
[00:19:30] Just tell them fuck off.
[00:19:32] Yeah.
[00:19:32] I was like, we don't need your business because how many bottles are you going to buy?
[00:19:36] So I would just say stanchezza.
[00:19:38] No, you know what?
[00:19:39] That's okay.
[00:19:39] We don't need your business.
[00:19:40] You know, for a winery that lives with other markets or whatever, it's good to have a brand
[00:19:46] in different wine lists and whatever.
[00:19:49] But for a winery that you can see it's like young and they need the sale.
[00:19:54] Right.
[00:19:55] They need the 60-day payments.
[00:19:56] They don't need that 320 days payment.
[00:19:59] You know what I mean?
[00:20:00] Yeah.
[00:20:00] Like people don't understand that.
[00:20:02] Right.
[00:20:03] So that's why I was quite sharp on this argument.
[00:20:09] Right.
[00:20:09] But, you know, I'm not afraid to say that, you know, the market is wild.
[00:20:17] But you need to change.
[00:20:19] Yeah.
[00:20:20] You need to change.
[00:20:21] Yeah.
[00:20:21] I, I, the thing that, that, that struck me was when you said sort of like the, the places
[00:20:28] aren't working for the wineries.
[00:20:30] They're almost working against the wineries, right?
[00:20:33] You don't, it should be a sense of cooperation.
[00:20:35] Whereas we're all working together to sort of promote the region.
[00:20:39] These places are ambassadors for the collection, the collection of, of wineries that they present
[00:20:44] to their clients coming in.
[00:20:46] Right.
[00:20:47] And so it should be a collaboration.
[00:20:49] Right.
[00:20:50] Instead of making you feel like they're doing you a favor.
[00:20:53] Yes.
[00:20:53] Yes.
[00:20:53] Yeah.
[00:20:54] And so what's your, what's your strategy to combat that?
[00:20:58] What is, what's, how are you sort of penetrating that market now with a new strategy, with a
[00:21:03] new mindset?
[00:21:05] We still, I think now we had like more than two and a half years of building the seller.
[00:21:12] Okay.
[00:21:13] So we've been very destroyed physically, mentally focusing just that.
[00:21:19] Okay.
[00:21:20] So.
[00:21:20] But low key.
[00:21:21] Low key.
[00:21:22] So now our strategy is to consolidate everything, focus a lot on quality and production.
[00:21:29] Right.
[00:21:31] And consolidating our current markets.
[00:21:34] Okay.
[00:21:34] And then go and start again.
[00:21:37] Okay.
[00:21:38] And, and definitely we are in a, sad to say, but we are in a very, you know, recession time,
[00:21:46] I would say.
[00:21:46] The markets are very quiet.
[00:21:48] Right.
[00:21:49] So we need to just.
[00:21:50] For wine sales in general.
[00:21:52] Yeah.
[00:21:53] Yeah.
[00:21:53] Yeah.
[00:21:53] Yeah.
[00:21:54] I don't know why.
[00:21:54] I don't know if it's the weather or whatever, but, but it's a, it's a wild world situation.
[00:21:59] Kat Steven said it first, eh?
[00:22:00] Yeah.
[00:22:01] Okay.
[00:22:01] So I think we need to understand what, what, what's the dynamic in the next months.
[00:22:07] That is going to, everything's going to catch up.
[00:22:09] So we will be there for that.
[00:22:11] But now personally, also as a family, as a new, new winery build, whatever, we need to consolidate
[00:22:20] everything to then be able and strong to, to keep, keep pushing.
[00:22:25] Right.
[00:22:26] Also, it's something that we believe very strongly in is it's so easy to, to, to kind of lay out the map and say, okay, let's go to all the new markets and just kind of attack and a big strategy and sell there.
[00:22:40] Um, it's more difficult and more challenging to just kind of stay and maintain the markets that you have, but it's extremely important.
[00:22:48] Right.
[00:22:48] But I mean, across all the markets that we have to, to, to really show face and to say, no, we're with you guys.
[00:22:55] This is longterm.
[00:22:56] If on your side, the market is struggling, no worries.
[00:22:59] We actually have a longterm partnership.
[00:23:01] This is a family situation.
[00:23:03] Right.
[00:23:04] Um, and so that's a very important thing for us, not just to keep jumping to new markets.
[00:23:08] Okay.
[00:23:09] Less is sort of like saying, okay, we got to find another market there, another market there.
[00:23:12] You have sort of your, whatever it is, 12, 15, 25, 35 markets where you're working well and you're just concentrating on making sure those are stable and that you're creating a familial bond.
[00:23:25] Like you said, right.
[00:23:26] When you're saying, okay, we're not really going to jump on you because your depletions for last month weren't as good as the month before.
[00:23:33] Or it's like, okay, how do we work through this?
[00:23:35] How do we work together?
[00:23:36] How do we keep going forward?
[00:23:37] We take very seriously every two or three days to personally message our, um, our clients, um, internationally and, and find out what's happening on their side.
[00:23:49] How are the wines being received?
[00:23:51] What is really liked?
[00:23:52] What is less understood?
[00:23:55] What's being appreciated?
[00:23:56] What are your challenges?
[00:23:57] How can we help?
[00:23:58] Right.
[00:23:59] Um, also from their side, they're very communicated.
[00:24:01] Yeah, but because.
[00:24:02] They communicate with you as well.
[00:24:03] Because we create this very.
[00:24:04] Also like Papa Mets says, oh, I was the season, uh, whatever.
[00:24:07] Okay.
[00:24:07] Because we've created, we've built this really open communication with our clients.
[00:24:11] It's very personal.
[00:24:12] Um, exactly.
[00:24:13] We've made it very personal because at the end of the day, business is also a two way street.
[00:24:18] We're not just selling the wine saying, bye.
[00:24:20] Okay.
[00:24:20] You guys handle it.
[00:24:21] Right.
[00:24:21] Um, it takes a massive collaboration to really create a brand as well.
[00:24:26] Okay.
[00:24:27] Yeah.
[00:24:27] That's super important too, isn't it?
[00:24:29] Yeah.
[00:24:30] You know, we, we want to be in as many markets as possible because we also like to travel.
[00:24:36] Uh-huh.
[00:24:37] When we travel, we go for business, but we also try to enjoy the, the markets, the culture.
[00:24:45] Have you been to Japan?
[00:24:46] Many times.
[00:24:47] Yeah.
[00:24:47] I love Japan.
[00:24:48] Yeah.
[00:24:49] I was there in November now.
[00:24:50] It's hard not to love Japan.
[00:24:51] It's, it's beautiful.
[00:24:52] It's unbelievable.
[00:24:53] It's incredible.
[00:24:53] Yeah, exactly.
[00:24:54] You know, I think it's very important for a winemaker, for an entrepreneur that owns a winery
[00:25:00] in Frioli, in Italy, in South Africa, everywhere to go visit the markets because the markets are changing
[00:25:08] in a speed that we are not, we can't believe.
[00:25:12] For example?
[00:25:13] For example, Japan in three years, the way of selling wine completely changed.
[00:25:20] Ah.
[00:25:21] If before, can be also an importer strategy, but you can see a lot of new places.
[00:25:29] Okay.
[00:25:29] So the wine changed from being sold to Italian restaurants.
[00:25:34] Okay.
[00:25:35] A lot of Japanese chefs and whatever started in Italy.
[00:25:39] Okay.
[00:25:39] So they go back to Tokyo or whatever and try to make the Italo-Japanese cuisine.
[00:25:47] Okay.
[00:25:47] A very good.
[00:25:48] How is that stuff?
[00:25:49] A very good interpretation.
[00:25:50] Very good.
[00:25:51] Very good.
[00:25:51] It's very interesting.
[00:25:52] Yeah, interesting.
[00:25:53] Okay.
[00:25:53] Very high quality, very raffinated, but with their own touch, you know.
[00:25:57] Okay.
[00:25:58] And obviously with some of their own ingredients.
[00:26:00] Yeah.
[00:26:00] So your wines are there.
[00:26:01] Okay.
[00:26:02] And I'm on a wine list for restaurant, whatever.
[00:26:04] In three years.
[00:26:05] So I've been there last year, 23, and I was there in 2020, just before COVID.
[00:26:12] Now the amount of wine bars, wine shop, wine bars like Enotex, it's insane.
[00:26:19] Really?
[00:26:20] So your wine is just by the glass and people go there, drink.
[00:26:23] So their culture-
[00:26:24] They're tiny, tiny, tiny.
[00:26:25] More.
[00:26:26] Tiny little places.
[00:26:27] Tiny little wine bars.
[00:26:28] It's Italians.
[00:26:29] You know, we go in Australia and drink just a glass of wine, a cicchetto, and whatever.
[00:26:34] Right.
[00:26:35] It's crazy in three years.
[00:26:36] It's exploded.
[00:26:38] Really?
[00:26:39] Yeah.
[00:26:39] That's encouraging.
[00:26:41] It's encouraging.
[00:26:41] So maybe that thing, you know, if that's happening in Japan, maybe that can happen in
[00:26:47] the United States as well or in-
[00:26:49] Yeah, for sure.
[00:26:50] And something that a lot of people don't understand in Friuli, it's the wave of sustainability
[00:26:58] and organic, that type of winemaking.
[00:27:02] Okay.
[00:27:03] All the markets are getting there.
[00:27:06] Okay.
[00:27:07] Especially like-
[00:27:07] So there's a specific request for that type of sustainability.
[00:27:11] Yes.
[00:27:11] People want to drink organic wines.
[00:27:14] Yeah.
[00:27:14] They really do.
[00:27:15] And they ask for them specifically.
[00:27:16] They really do.
[00:27:17] And we too, like we want maybe not organic, but low intervention.
[00:27:22] We don't want to eat and drink rubbish.
[00:27:25] Right.
[00:27:26] If you go to the shop, you look what you want to eat.
[00:27:29] You know, it's not that organic is not the answer.
[00:27:34] Okay.
[00:27:35] Okay.
[00:27:36] But we need to think as a way.
[00:27:38] We can't still do as we were doing 20 years ago.
[00:27:42] Yeah.
[00:27:42] Okay.
[00:27:43] Things need to be changed.
[00:27:44] Okay.
[00:27:45] But the markets are very focused, are very like determined to go in that direction.
[00:27:52] Really?
[00:27:52] Okay.
[00:27:53] And we have most of the scenario in our region that is still very conservative.
[00:28:02] In what sense?
[00:28:04] In farming.
[00:28:04] In farming.
[00:28:05] In organic and-
[00:28:07] So resistant to going in that direction.
[00:28:10] Yes.
[00:28:11] Resistant.
[00:28:12] Afraid.
[00:28:13] Afraid.
[00:28:14] Afraid, for sure.
[00:28:16] Unwilling.
[00:28:17] Unwilling.
[00:28:17] Unwilling.
[00:28:20] Unwilling because?
[00:28:22] Because it's a big investment.
[00:28:24] Right.
[00:28:24] As well.
[00:28:24] It's a big-
[00:28:25] And a big risk.
[00:28:26] And a risk.
[00:28:26] Yeah.
[00:28:27] That's what I was thinking.
[00:28:27] A massive risk.
[00:28:29] It's a big change.
[00:28:30] Some don't like change.
[00:28:32] Right.
[00:28:33] We know how one thing works.
[00:28:34] Why should we shift?
[00:28:35] Right.
[00:28:36] So there-
[00:28:37] If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
[00:28:38] Yeah.
[00:28:39] There are many reasons why people are not moving in that way.
[00:28:43] But the thing is, I mean, we are no one, but we travel a fair amount.
[00:28:51] Mm-hmm.
[00:28:51] And we keep our eyes open and our ears as well the whole time.
[00:28:55] And the markets are really moving in that way.
[00:28:59] They're not going to buy the other wines anymore.
[00:29:01] Really?
[00:29:02] Yeah.
[00:29:02] Oh, it's not organic?
[00:29:04] Okay.
[00:29:04] I'll find some.
[00:29:04] A lot of importers are just kind of shifting entirely.
[00:29:09] To organic.
[00:29:09] And like you said, it's not the answer, but at least that's the new shift.
[00:29:13] Mm-hmm.
[00:29:14] Okay.
[00:29:14] And what about South Africa?
[00:29:17] What's the Scipitino market like in Joburg or in Cape Town?
[00:29:24] I would say non-existent.
[00:29:26] Okay.
[00:29:27] Yeah.
[00:29:27] Is it a difficult market for Italian wine?
[00:29:31] No.
[00:29:32] It just depends the region of Italy.
[00:29:34] Okay.
[00:29:34] Okay.
[00:29:34] They are, for example, our national distribution in South Africa.
[00:29:40] They're also an importer and they bring in a lot of Italian wines to South Africa.
[00:29:44] There is a fair-sized market.
[00:29:48] You have Barolo, Barbaresco.
[00:29:50] Exactly.
[00:29:50] I said the region.
[00:29:51] That's it.
[00:29:51] The classics.
[00:29:52] Exactly.
[00:29:53] Right.
[00:29:53] The names.
[00:29:54] That's okay.
[00:29:55] You know, South Africa is also slightly, I wouldn't say behind, but not at the level of wine culture that Italy is.
[00:30:03] Okay.
[00:30:03] Okay.
[00:30:04] In terms of production or consumption?
[00:30:07] Both.
[00:30:07] Both.
[00:30:08] Okay.
[00:30:08] Both.
[00:30:09] Still very much a country proud to drink South African wines.
[00:30:12] Okay.
[00:30:13] Okay.
[00:30:13] For the price of South African wines.
[00:30:15] You can drink a very nice white wine for like 60 bucks.
[00:30:19] That's like three euros.
[00:30:21] Whoa.
[00:30:22] A very nice wine.
[00:30:23] Okay.
[00:30:23] Yes.
[00:30:23] So there's a, there's a, obviously there's a price.
[00:30:26] There's a disposable income discussion.
[00:30:28] Absolutely.
[00:30:29] Right.
[00:30:29] Right.
[00:30:29] With regard to spending on wine.
[00:30:31] A lot of, a lot of the population drink wine.
[00:30:34] They also drink beer though.
[00:30:35] Drink box wine.
[00:30:37] Okay.
[00:30:37] Okay.
[00:30:37] Box wine still.
[00:30:38] Yes.
[00:30:39] So, so there's a, but there's, there's a movement happening in South Africa and a big young generation of, of new upcoming winemakers doing really interesting product projects in South Africa.
[00:30:53] Interesting.
[00:30:54] And those guys are on the, on the global market.
[00:30:57] And also in South Africa in the last five, six years, you see more and more wine shop, bottle shops.
[00:31:02] In South Africa.
[00:31:04] People go out there, drink a glass of wine.
[00:31:06] It's up and coming.
[00:31:07] It's up and coming.
[00:31:07] It's up and coming.
[00:31:08] Yes.
[00:31:08] Oh, so yeah.
[00:31:09] So maybe there's that, that trend that sort of Japanese and that, that's the whole idea of having these like little places where you go in and grab a glass of wine.
[00:31:16] But very focused on small wineries, boutique wineries, very unique.
[00:31:21] One great thing about South Africa and Daniele can absolutely back up this comment is that the, the wine bars or wine shops or, or restaurantiers are very appreciative.
[00:31:34] If you come and present your wine to them.
[00:31:37] Really?
[00:31:37] And really welcoming and, and really willing to take on your wine.
[00:31:41] That's cool.
[00:31:42] And they are really backing up the, the, the, the production of winemaking in South Africa.
[00:31:47] They want to promote it.
[00:31:48] They want to be part of it.
[00:31:50] They want to be collaborative.
[00:31:51] And that's something that was his first comment actually to me this year when we were down there.
[00:31:57] It's interesting, this perspective and that, that, that sort of supports that, that sometimes it's easier to sell your wine outside than it is to sell close to home.
[00:32:08] Yep.
[00:32:09] How about un sogno nel cassetto?
[00:32:12] This is what I always ask people.
[00:32:14] Like, what about a little, sort of like a little, little, little personal dream that you have, a little project, a little secret that you want to keep even sometime in the future you want to do.
[00:32:23] I always ask winemakers about sort of what, what sort of future project they might want to do.
[00:32:28] Could be with wine or maybe not with wine.
[00:32:30] Something, you know, something different.
[00:32:32] What about, what about, what about something in the future?
[00:32:34] Now that you've, now that you've got the, you've got the winery set up, you've got the, the tasting room set up.
[00:32:39] I mean, I don't know.
[00:32:40] You guys don't have anything else to do.
[00:32:43] That's not true.
[00:32:43] We have a lot to do.
[00:32:45] I would say, honestly, honestly, my dream, you know, we, we push in the last five, six years and we did projects that, that a normal, a normal business can do in like 15, 20 years, then 10, 15 years.
[00:33:05] Let's do like that.
[00:33:06] Okay.
[00:33:06] So my big aspiration, my big dream, and that's what we're going to do in the next years, it's literally focusing on family, leaving this dream of winemaking, you know, because sometimes we, we lose that because we're running around.
[00:33:26] We go here, we go there and we lose the single moments of our kids harvest or like enjoying the winemaking life in two different parts of the world and, and really live a balanced life.
[00:33:45] Uh-huh.
[00:33:45] That's, that's my dream.
[00:33:47] And this is exactly why fate brought us together.
[00:33:52] Okay.
[00:33:52] Because it's exactly my dream.
[00:33:54] Okay.
[00:33:54] I was about to say, I would love to do, um, be able to do maybe half the year in South Africa and half the year in, in Italy and really have a balanced lifestyle, um, with regard to both the wineries, um, the children, give them, um, an opportunity to experience both cultures, both countries.
[00:34:14] It's a big deal.
[00:34:14] Um, if they would like to get into the winemaking side on both, in both countries and, and really have, um, a really open mentality.
[00:34:22] Um, for me, it's really important what we're doing.
[00:34:26] Um, yes, for, for, for, for business reasons and for personal reasons as well, but to give our kids a really unique experience in life and to give them the opportunity to one day really choose and say, wow, um, I don't even know what to choose now.
[00:34:45] That is incredibly well.
[00:34:47] That is incredibly well adjusted.
[00:34:48] Like mentally well adjusted.
[00:34:51] Um, I'm really impressed now because that's, uh, a lot of people don't think in those terms.
[00:34:56] None of our, none of our dreams are actually monetary.
[00:35:00] Okay.
[00:35:01] Um, those are all secondary things.
[00:35:03] They really are.
[00:35:04] We, we've done everything with our, with our heart from the beginning.
[00:35:08] Um, and.
[00:35:09] Without a big background.
[00:35:11] Right.
[00:35:11] Certainly.
[00:35:12] So.
[00:35:12] What, what about a, a grape variety that you would love to work with?
[00:35:16] I mean, you're working with Pinot Noir and Chenin Blanc.
[00:35:19] Chenin Blanc.
[00:35:20] I'm literally, um, next week I'm going to the Loire because I want to taste like as much Chenin Blanc as I possibly can because I love Chenin Blanc.
[00:35:26] If you pop in tomorrow.
[00:35:27] Yeah.
[00:35:27] For the evening.
[00:35:28] We have some Chenin Blanc samples for.
[00:35:31] From South Africa.
[00:35:32] Yes.
[00:35:41] Or some crazy shit like that.
[00:35:43] I think, I think Friuli has already too many varietals.
[00:35:46] Okay.
[00:35:46] Okay.
[00:35:47] We, we already grew, we grew mostly indigenous varietals.
[00:35:51] Right.
[00:35:52] Okay.
[00:35:52] If they have to say like out, out loud, my, my dream in 10 years is to only make Scupitino de Propoto.
[00:36:00] Okay.
[00:36:01] Make 50,000 bottles of Scupitino de Propoto.
[00:36:03] That's it.
[00:36:04] That's it.
[00:36:04] That's what you do at Propoto.
[00:36:05] I concur.
[00:36:05] That's what you do.
[00:36:06] You know, you don't need to make a hundred thousand like things.
[00:36:09] You make it because the market's required and whatever.
[00:36:12] But if you're strong enough to just make one wine.
[00:36:15] Right.
[00:36:15] That's going to be Scupitino de Propoto.
[00:36:17] Because if you believe in something.
[00:36:19] You push that.
[00:36:20] This is what I do.
[00:36:22] Yeah.
[00:36:22] Maybe you don't buy it now.
[00:36:23] You buy it tomorrow.
[00:36:24] Right.
[00:36:25] But after five years, you're strong on that.
[00:36:27] Right.
[00:36:28] If you keep scrolling your catalog pages.
[00:36:30] Right.
[00:36:31] You know, but we're still scrolling the catalog pages since like 50 years.
[00:36:35] Yeah.
[00:36:35] Exactly.
[00:36:36] Like that's the ambition is to just make one wine.
[00:36:39] I think you arrive in your, in your, in your, in heaven.
[00:36:45] Right.
[00:36:45] When the Nutza is Scupitino de Propoto.
[00:36:49] Okay.
[00:36:49] That's it.
[00:36:50] And that's it.
[00:36:50] That's it.
[00:36:51] That's it.
[00:36:51] And of course, the numbers, the things, everything needs to go together.
[00:36:56] Right.
[00:36:56] You know what I mean?
[00:36:57] And, but maybe max two wines.
[00:36:59] You know, we have wineries in Friuli are like five, six, 10 hectares and they make 15 wines.
[00:37:06] Right.
[00:37:06] It's, it's, it's not sustainable.
[00:37:08] Right.
[00:37:08] You know, it's local, it's tradition and whatever, but, but it's, it's crazy.
[00:37:15] Exactly.
[00:37:16] Exactly.
[00:37:17] Well, thank you guys very much for spending time with me today and spending time with us.
[00:37:23] Thank you so much.
[00:37:23] It was a pleasure.
[00:37:24] It was also a pleasure speaking English.
[00:37:26] I get to do that rarely these days with, with La Taverna.
[00:37:30] So thank you for coming and, and, and telling me about your story.
[00:37:33] It was very, very interesting conversation.
[00:37:35] Thank you.
[00:37:36] I appreciate it.
[00:37:36] Thank you so much.
[00:37:36] And I will see you, I will see you at the, at the winery for sure.
[00:37:40] Perfect.
[00:37:41] All right.
[00:37:41] Thanks again.
[00:37:42] Thanks.
[00:37:42] Cheers guys.
[00:37:43] Cheers.
[00:37:43] Ciao.
[00:37:45] Ciao.